Listen to the panel I moderated at a recent Plato event. The topic was building and engineering culture that retains talent. There are some really great responses to the questions and it was a great panel overall. Thank you to Plato for allowing me to post this on my podcast.
Sue Nallapeta, Sr. Director of Engineering @ Zoosk
Uma Chingunde, Sr. Engineering Manager @ Delphix
Tido Carriero, VP Engineering @ Segment
Seth Sakamoto, VP Engineering @ TuneIn
Thank you to all of the panelists who participated. It was a great event.
I apologize for the sound quality. The wireless microphones was not working correctly so it is not as “polished” as I would have liked.
Engineering career path and ladder (scroll to the bottom to find the links).
(transcription provided by Google Api) – Note: The transcription for this episode is not that great due to the number of speakers and some issues with the microphones at the event.Show Transcript:
[0:00] Can everyone hear me fine?
[0:05] Thank you panel for come here today thank you calling and Play-Doh for sponsoring this event this is my multiples of been here and it’s awesome. Guess here tonight and for moderating.
[0:16] So just an anecdote was you don’t know actually do a reminder to talk to us today in the audience.
Today I’m super excited.
What are some of the clothing in the story that Brian chesky to Co Air B&B.
Please advise that you could give and you said.
And I think that’s a little bit of why we’re here today to talk about how important cultures you’re really is right.
Another person report of Dan pink changing workplaces.
[1:06] Show the bikes going in and out when they have a purpose in their work and some of the most successful.
Put that into their culture so and culture means different things to different people so I want to ask different times today I’ll start with.
So you’re right next to me okay you know what does culture mean to you by person called for me culture is all about values and also the personality of people.
Because I feed it should be easy enough for people to live the culture day in and day out.
For me culture Zoosk at the company I work at culture is about bringing your dog to work for example one of the values we have is speak up so it is.
If Engineers want to have their own initiatives that they want to help out for the company they can speak up and we’ll find it and they can go and work on it it’s about conducting hackathons having fun.
We also have another glad you called I don’t stop caring so we do engage every quarter in giving back to the community for me culture is all about.
Being and loving the people that you work with and also being part of the vision of the company and then lastly sort of giving a fist bump to the security guard every day.
[2:32] I’m so poorly VP Adventure tune in for drinks later about that sitting.
I noticed with with Engineers especially if you ask what the coach was when people say they had a great culture or an aquaculture.
Without the engineering word talking mostly about the values of the people who work around and do they like each other today you’re having lunch today do I have any dog in the office.
That kind of goes to kind of the basic level of.
Of need which is due I enjoy coming to work and seeing the face of all these people feel like they like me what do you add the word engineering.
Using speak to sense of Pride that you there are actions or behaviors that happened in the entry workplace that make you say.
Poorly or they went well and I’m really proud of that either you know the code reader you could have gone poorly behaved they helped me the feedback was awesome that that that was you don’t grade level standard form.
410 Gucci Mane or four standards for quality of craftsmanship so he goes into both the feelings of.
Understandably with a people but mostly the sense of Pride and that’s when I talk and generally or specifically really look at.
You have the base level is kind of company-wide and certainly has an injury leader you can affect that cuz you hire and you know a lot of lot of a company.
The other part is really making sure that there’s a reason why people come to work for you and for that company.
[4:03] Aries as you know besides years can work and do what they do for pretty much every company or most companies is a specific reason why does he used to because there’s a sense of Pride there’s a.
[4:13] Attachment to why you did for this company.
[4:16] My name is Tito I work at a bank for me definitely culture boils down to a set of values and then think the values is a little tight but I think the values are sort of a framework for making decisions when like.
You know the leadership team.
What come back to help you make good decisions.
Tribe Focus I set off this year to like figure out what our engineering culture was at the beginning of urine.
[4:51] For some reason it was going to be different than the company values and then after about a month of failing at that decided.
It was definitely the same as that the company values I’m just I think the interpretation for engineering.
To be a little bit different while you know what what is the value karma for instance meaning to the engineering team for the marketing team in means like don’t do crappie.
Like crappy content and put it out there and just blast channels I think the engineering team, is a deep sense of.
Focusing on the customer and let the customer needs for value.
That’s what it is Uma High Zuma.
I used to get down 600 2 weeks ago and joining a new company another week so I’m going to talk in the context of them every company that I work for myself.
Selected almost like honest on a subconscious level of knowledge of like actually learned what good and bad cultures look like a record of try to be more careful that I’m,
I think I’m going to a place with a great culture very soon so to me the culture is kind of every disease unspoken rules and then see scan of intangibles,
Goblin like everything from Megaforce time a recruiter cold calls you or I can reach out on LinkedIn like raising the use in their email to you.
From your exit interview when you leave a company and that’s like every every step of the way like what are the things that people do and what are the rules that they follow through.
[6:25] And the retractions is kind of like the company culture I think things are about places that I’ve worked,
previously the things that I really valued were like extremely high trust environment setting that without trust like fundamental to me is,
having an extremely trustworthy.
Enlightenment that you trust your co-workers you trust your boss you trust her before you trust everyone like around you to do the right thing.
And that is fundamentally so it actually very fortunate to see kind of like company core values being formed at my last company because we had to see your change of the new CEO was like we don’t actually have core values and he actually,
wanted us to come up with a set of core values what I like this he didn’t do it in a top-down way and it wasn’t like,
on hands when you like put them up on this phone like it on a presentation he actually went,
like across the company and came up the set of core values and to my surprise and Delight the top one was fostering Trust.
I think that is what country means to me and I feel like I’m very conscious in like evaluating company culture like in all my job searching searching for my job search in one corner was explicitly culture.
[7:40] Right now if you could tell me going in reverse this way in as few words as possible at your current or most previous company what was that company’s culture.
[7:51] To Identifix the company country was I just had trust height fostering trust with a high neck would like to talk culture it was very cooperative.
And I think this was seen in every interaction so I found like the minute I stepped in the door to like the day I was leaving everybody was like you know how can we help you how can we make things better,
trust in between an operation Innovation and excellence,
patting the DVD and body odor that is what about you.
Yep as soon as I said, I tried driving Focus are for values I think karma is definitely the one that we spend the most time talking about with with candidates and,
the one that feels the most unique I mean it’s this sense that we like every interaction we have with like a partner with a customer with like a candidate.
That we were jacked you know whatever it is we want to sort of leave them with.
An awesome experience and hopefully leave them with some value and I get on the phone pretty often with engineering candidates that we were jacked and give them very detailed feedback on like what our impression was and even though this is not going,
it’s not going to work out for them to it to work at Sacrament we want to be like a really high Karma situation,
other folks like we would we would like to be treated and those calls are not the most fun things in the world but I think I think that’s what it’s really about and I think that’s the the one value that segment apart the most.
[9:28] Christian centers few words as possible just shut the hell up having to get your culture into one sentence.
I’m just about to turn the team around it felt very much stuck in a decade ago so where’d I spoke to Pride that was a key which is he looked at every indicator to the program tools.
Standards for good craftsmanship for code was wrong to say no in every way shape form or not.
In line with certain best practices of the of today A lot of it was upgrading it was very much keeping to what as an injury would feel proud to work with on.
Talked about a lot of other values to the good kind of people you want to work with the mission of the company but a lot of it is just going to upload lean your expectations as a team.
[10:27] In the previous company I worked at 2 and in the current companies that.
We talked about culture the most important thing is trust and commitment some of the values that we have are around this we have a notice to Disco This fun to be had habit.
Don’t stop caring a speak up all of these so for me those are the most important things by thing about culture.
[10:54] I’m still working at I’ll stay with you for a second too so obviously different cultures you work at Blackhawk and.
How is a culture in a much different from you know your most recent.
That’s a good question so I join black talk before the IPL and then we went IPL so I saw the culture shifting drastically before the IPO it was.
More collaboration that was a lot of trust in less processes because people trusted people to just do the work.
But asked of you when I build the culture shifted because we also grew rapidly so we needed to establish some processes.
These men are bad but it wasn’t necessary,
but I do Square smaller so I see a huge shift from what it was a Black Ops for you worked at research interesting companies in your past Facebook.
Dropbox and segments how would you define and compared to try some of the cultural differences between the three.
That’s why I feel like I didn’t understand Facebook’s culture deeply until I was like maybe 6 months and it Dropbox and I was like oh man I,
by the differences of these two places I I deeply understand it on Facebook was very famous of course for the move fast and break things mentality,
they change the twin much Lamer I value smooth move fast on stable and Fry or something incredibly lame like that.
[12:25] 8 years after yeah I think it was interesting yeah there we go sorry if I’m insulting anyone I think it’s,
a little way more than move it was that in a little red book that secretly read book they have a culture I think I was probably after my time I never I never saw the secret book but very different.
Had a cultural I had a bunch of different values by think like sweat the details was always the value that came up over and over and over again and.
I think I was really quarter to the Dropbox kind of way of doing things and it was just very starkly different and really interesting and then new assignments,
really around sort of this this Carmine customer value and really focusing on the customer focusing on our partners,
I’m by think Yahoo is just interesting that you don’t even really fully appreciate your culture until you’re until you’re at a different place you’re like wow this is really different but this was my first job out of school so I’m deaf,
big Deltas between all three and also mention that cultural can change over time right,
for better or worse and it tends to be the cultural changes as you grow at least heard Nick speak about how do you maintain sort of culture in a fast-growing environment right then you mentioned it to topic,
how change pre-op you and post-ipo you feel a change for the better or worse or just difference.
[13:46] It’s just different so one example is for exam before we could ship code very fast quick turnaround time,
but after IPO we had to be careful,
I’ll be better but always watching us so we had to be more careful with the slower and the financial industry cares a lot about,
people’s money in real time and if someone is going to buy a gift card,
you don’t want anything happening to that experience so there’s a lot at stake they’re supposed to now at zoos,
it’s all about dating we have the same kind of scaling problems and stuff but the values we have much more relaxed.
[14:32] How to make just add like I think it’s definitely the as the needs of the business changed,
so do you have to have all the cultures at to meet the needs of the business and in the early days of Facebook the most important thing was to like tip countries and it didn’t matter if the site only work 6 out of 7 days like as long as you got like the network in there and that’s what,
a whole company was focused on from 2008 to 2010 and then,
as like making money and being reliable became a lot more important that the culture really had to shift to to support that I think and I think the one thing I’m going to try to transition the conversation to a little bit to is around people,
Anthony so much of culture depends upon people and people write hiring right and you don’t play retention is is aspect all aspects of a business structure,
but if it starts with who you allow in or who you going to be allowed to come in to join this unique culture that you created because every single person that you bring in will expect that culture in certain way.
China movies with you or about in your culture.
How do you the people you feel that people coming in to your organization know what your cultural is when they’re starting interview process like you make it very clear about what their values are when they’re interviewing in the process rights.
I’m absolutely I think of hiring is an extension of what you do with your current team every day you trying to hire them.
Keep him interested we keep the motivated we changed.
Post on what why why they left come to work it so that the message sell both of his culture they lot of it is double standards I can mention that about you feel proud about.
[16:11] Changing orientation a lot of it is what team hears.
Nico Street about the values of people and how much you love seeing them and they love seeing you and all that. What do you like it or not comes across in any certain interview.
She may still be explicit about it I absolutely.
[16:30] Yeah so I’ve asked you just done this without actually telling Jeff about about it so my you have to remember that.
People are like interviewing you as much as you’re interviewing them in the process so as an interim manager was like really interesting to me to see how how,
interview processes for engineering managers where did so dramatically two completely different like that,
venturing interviews are very structured that’s kind of like a well-known formula like in or design coding kind of culture fit,
flash kind of feel like HR kind of thing but it’s like a very well-known faucet entering manager like I went through this process and it’s it’s very dramatically different depending on which company you’re interviewing for,
and finally the company that I actually chose to CO2 it has 100,
had one of the best processes so you have to be very mindful of the process because you’re essentially kind of showcasing your culture in the interview process,
because whether or not you’re like you know what you structure like who you get the candy to talk to in the process is,
like in reflecting process to them and sending another point to add is,
you also one country to be explicit check in this process because specially for hiring senior people or entering managers those people are in Congress by other,
if you’re not evaluating for culture at that point then you’re essentially going to lose your culture to the hiring process.
[17:58] Me too I think another quote is it they’ve done studies an employee retention is pretty directly correlated to how much.
That employee fits into a company’s culture right if you’re going to work at Patagonia right versus Amazon or Netflix which has its own I think it over here probably understands with the Netflix is culture is.
That’s different and making sure that you are a bit on the employment hiring process is just as important to your how many of your do you guys have a culture book or culture deck like HubSpot or Netflix or anything but you guys you know it’s codified in writing somewhere.
So how many of you could also you know I think some of us even we talked and we talked a lot we decided to skip the firm’s how how many of you could in one sentence describe your company’s culture you feel like you can do it.
[18:44] Handful of people think it’s very important and I think you know what woman talk about the importance of.
Making sure you’re consistent in that message that you’re telling your candidates during the interview process is extremely important right to make sure that they’re a good match for you as well as your good match for them briefly Houma.
What what do you do as part of the process they start with you super sexy.
[19:17] One of the first things we do is we have a cultural interview at the first round of every girl called the hiring manager calls the person and we sort of just go into the details of their work and they show a lot of interest in what.
What would they take pride in and how good are they about speaking to their experience so and then we sort of,
talk about our values and you know me ask them questions like have you read our engineering blog,
I’m sort of the see if they actually show that interest and reciprocate back so and also wants to come on side we make sure that they have cross-functional interviews and it’s not just technical,
we do have technical interviews but cross-functional is equally important especially include people from marketing design product they bring in different perspective,
they sometimes ask questions like have you work with designers and what was your thought process so we don’t ask those questions being an engineering so that really helps out.
But most importantly one last thing I wanted to touch upon his once they join they also make sure for people who leave the company for their own personal reasons.
We Define a culture such that we’ve been lucky that people actually work with us,
like 3 months to 6 months to actually perform a great transition planning and find a replacement and then leave so I think that culture spreads about and Beyond and into the whole journey of an employee.
[20:44] Magic the first step is just making it explicit what are those things rules attribute you looking for.
Culture soul I hear it’s a lot that you know you won’t answer yours that have high standards in Ocho initiative.
The interview is having to tell you what to do it’s a big bounded problem sort to list and they say it’s a pass no problem.
So how are you observing initiative and Dennis had some says it’s high since my standards so.
Bother you rather get a customized project that allows you show that mean to have an open-ended project with open amounts of times a man Transportation they can determine the standard that’s done.
So what are you just going to be in clear up front.
Think of it as recruiting your own team person and people that aren’t here either team II so making exposed to them they know what your expectations are what the.
Joint Expeditions are laws of you to them do things like crafting every process articulates.
Much more coherently across-the-board to anybody who’s dated who.
[21:43] Yeah I think so we had a different culture coffee which was an incredibly unstructured 30 minutes without without a lot of guidance up until the beginning of this year and I think there’s actually a pretty big danger.
Relying on Signal that’s incredibly unstructured there’s lots of lots of studies and unconscious bias and other other areas that just show that,
this is going to be like test for like we like to sit next to the person on the plane for 12 hours or you like to grab yours with person and it’s actually really not a great test of culture and so one of the big things we did in the last 6 months or so,
tweet about the court interviewing program and basically took all of our values we met them two attributes that we think your body those values and then we met those two very specific.
Questions on questions that test like questions at the test.
Bunch of different attributes in the map to our values and we actually have like a very clear rubric and we took a bunch of our most calibrated and most senior interviewers and it’s a very special program only about,
10 or 15 interviewers are qualified to do these and and we use this as like,
some of our most useful signal as a hiring manager is what comes out of this core interview and I think,
that’s like really putting your money where your mouth is if you have these. I use you care about like thinking deeply about.
What attributes you expect and what exactly are questions you should be asking you keep on spending time with every single candidate that’s the only mandatory question we have across every single.
[23:14] I job description of every single roller hiring for for there must be a core interview and that’s for this very purpose.
Very good I mean trying to get quantitative around your your hiring process again anyone here does anyone have.
Core values and then spelled out that the engineering panel on their interviewing Rubik’s so they’re interviewing how many companies do that right now,
I think it’s it’s too that sounds like an awesome process there I love to talk to you more about that as well as I think we can all learn a little bit. Really trying to make that quantitative to get away from that you know that bias of hiring too many me right,
I just wanted to add I think I think culture fate is kind of already know the time for the reasons that you mention adventure time I’ve heard used as country as.
So you really are and I think having you really want to be careful that you don’t go so far into trying for a control freak that you didn’t end up with a bunch of people that look exactly like you did when they all went to the same.
Anything for dark or interviews rubric and a very thorough well-thought-out and a rigorous interview process that people are actually well trained on it can be like you just throw someone into a room and be like Austin do like.
Short two strings that cannot be what it is and that’s what we did I done fixed which is behind already rigorous Wells Fargo process people are to be trained to be interviewed.
Nothing back is a big part of one thing that has gotten some attention for this panel this evening to is around diversity the kind of the issues around that especially in in Silicon Valley.
[24:52] How many Q look in the audience right now and you can see that it’s it’s extremely waited and.
You know what if anything have your company’s done to make sure one is diversity inclusion as part of anyone’s culture right is it is an important piece of your hiring process.
And what are some of the things that you have done I’m going to go through each one of you cuz I think it’s an important question here but what if you done your company’s done to make sure that you address diversity inclusion issues in your hiring process into included as part of your culture.
[25:26] For me but I think about diversity and inclusion diversity is a fit about.
Inclusion is how to make people work with each other I want stupid inclusion is more important before a lot on inclusion,
as well because of porous it’s important to empower people and short people actually are involved in the decision-making,
sometimes it’s hard to actually take into account meetings for example,
are you really enjoy hurting people who don’t talk a lot are also having,
a voice in the discussion like how can you make sure being fair when you promote people hiring someone,
Lake Villas can everyone please.
Picture of inclusion.
Naturally that the people’s personalities will come up into hiring more diverse candidates so I think puts problem to tackle his inclusion and then they proceeded.
[26:35] I’m semi I answer I guess you folks and inclusion and kind of what’s the underlying.
That’s because we just fairness because diversity in a lot in your tape memes with your fault definition is gender age and sexual orientation and ethnicity and.
All the other categories are behind even think about the.
What you’re trying to do is ultimately remove that bias from your entire process of your your mind set up so we kind of think of training to Blind screening,
rerouting more the quality to work before they should learn more about the person they’re downside to that but these are different techniques we use texting so it’s a service that beastly dinner sizes,
job descriptions sweet expensive.
So you try always to try and cancel but it’s really on this all these are not any none of these are silver bullets but they all provide.
Search Louis Cardinals two of your vices might be in it and also the best way I think too.
You can’t make yourself all-knowing and all sympathetic but he can certainly make sure that you got the check and balance with your process and your people so out of it is just kind of putting putting the checks and balances in place in every.
Baby snapping at every tool resonate Spider-Man.
[27:54] All this resonates could have been I don’t have too much that I would say the the main things is just like really firm rubrics and like Claret good Clarity of thought going into a new,
job description you roll your hiring for I think,
there’s like a lot of danger and sort of being a little bit lazy about how to set that up and exactly what you’re looking for and I think that’s where.
Bias or random randomness or other bad things can sneak in but when you’re really crisp on what you’re looking for from.
Cultural fit perspective from a core skills perspective and you really take the time to actually write out the rubric and like no one starts interviewing if there’s not a rubric that we all.
Rihanna and and believe in and I think that just takes time it takes a lot of extra effort but it’s definitely worth it to think that’s that’s a really big piece of of where we’ve been more successful it’s just like putting in that time and energy.
[28:47] I told that I are insured diversity by being the hiring manager so you’ll be shocked as too kind of the range of responses I get from people when I when a woman is interviewing them like both on the phone and in person so it actually really good Furniture of,
I mean I’m joking mostly but I think one key thing there that I’m kind of glad you didn’t do is our divorce hiding pants,
as far as possible on I think I agree totally with what you decide which is a rubric.
For like the job descriptions obviously want the job descriptions do not have words like Rockstar quarter or like it okay to things like not,
the stop sign of showing that women will only apply to jobs where they make hundred percent of the requirements of trying to be really really cute about what you’re actually looking for in a job description stuff that I have divorce panels were not at the cost of making like the only woman be.
In your company like Beyond every single interview.
I also like have people that are interviewing cannot be conscious or like look for signals for diversity.
And that and then make your recruiters be aware that this is a goal for your company like looking for more candidates looking for like.
Like and like I have encouraged people to reach out to god of fools.
And I found it open like an old people are more excited when they see like old ticket to work for women and I’m like okay then you’re the right kind of kind of it you’re looking for.
[30:10] Process I’m down to Mike’s now I’m done Chevrolet.
Magneto or something so I think we spent a lot of time and energy on hiring right and part of this.
Talks today we’re about retaining people right and how I think important it is to not only have your culture,
you know you can talk about it but actually have your company match the culture that you’ve talked about and how important that is from a cultural standpoint what do you how do you find that,
retaining employees right cuz it didn’t match the culture is so important so what do you do to help retain them to real to keep that culture because every employee you had,
change that culture someone right and it was a quote somewhere and I think Nick said it before to the process overtime right becomes your culture,
at his house it’s something has to be guarded right intended it so do you have any one of your companies that owns culture or is it you know everybody’s responsibility and how do you kind of nurture that and make sure that it stays true to the course.
I think it’s everyone’s responsibility to on the culture.
Did I send a team like HR who might actually encourage people and set up the culture to begin with but it’s everybody’s responsibility to make sure that the cat,
awesome things that we do to retain is also we have made sure that is dual career path of a people like wants to go in individual track as well as management.
Because people in one of the questions there I think people in icy track also want a leadership position but not necessarily knowing how to do that.
[31:49] So we have different levels we also have director-level at the IC a track and then we also make sure that they get work on some strategy.
Initiatives they get to drive it with.
So they feel empowered in the decision-making process and also going back to diversity question again some of the things that we also make sure is,
I’ll be looked at our health benefits and said,
all you notice that actually cater to same-sex marriages and you don’t like those kind of things to that you have to look at to make sure the employees feel happy across the board see if you can different Focus areas as well.
[32:28] I think it’s like it’s a super important topic is like it doesn’t matter how many people you hire if you cannot keep them you’re constantly losing people and I think,
people need to feel valued Karachi bringing something to the table,
Jason feel like you need to kind of the initial feeling that they had that excitement when they started when they joined the company you need to kind of keep that alive so essentially it’s really important that they be heard that if you let have a Little Teapot,
I do go back to like yes it’s very important to have separate tracks for.
Pisces and managers and I think of all the companies that I’ve ever worked could have had that and I think it’s it’s super important people want to be able to see where they will be like next week next month in a year or so until 4 and they want to feel happy about where they work.
[33:22] Yeah I think you know most of his urine during managers are injured are leaders and a lot of times were going to come in to accompany you know that you’re taking over a team right I mean some of us if they’re starting up and that’s a Greenfield thing and that’s pretty awesome,
but a lot of times in a cruise or going to go into a company,
where maybe the culture has veered course with a country culture has become stagnant or in some cases toxic and you have to change the culture.
And it’s like changing of a moving ship has some experience in that I wanted to put the question of a human how do you deal with going into company and effecting change on the culture is an engineering leader.
How do I change the screen with make a little bit of that process over time does become culture drives it but I think most people overtime,
heading when you join a company that’s been around for a while they’re all those people that are good to go to people but the Danone top people Engineers are otherwise that eventually all your models of culture anyway so you,
first thing I try to do is learn about what do they do well that makes them highly respected usually something there to build on,
example of the model of the country wants in the absence of whoever those people and identify them putting them in positions of influence,
you ever read read Malcolm Gladwell his book of Tipping Point you like as a spread of information to the spread of viruses you kind of need more points of.
Injection 00 if you’re the Pokey need more priests you more people to spread the word I’m so everything’s fine with people and they already are bottling.
What are the things that they specifically do that are influential and ideal to shape a culture but also make sure their positions to them affect things whether it’s put them in a leadership position or formalize their awesomeness.
I’m otherwise I have a couple of lightning sort of quick questions here as we should have one at a time and there’s a there’s some awesome questions here that I wish we could spend another half an hour kind of going over.
The first one is how do you affect cultural change potentially without firing a lot of people.
[35:34] Right is it one is it possible yes no can you can you affect change and culture without firing people how do you do it.
[35:44] And for what it’s like it it’s a very broad question right I mean it depends on what the people.
What is it that you’re looking at are you looking at a culture that is incorrect like actually illegal stuff then yes and people need to be fired because you were doing something illegal but if it’s a thing of like mentality or items like,
point out about this is like you know you like a smaller company where you had like smaller customers and now you’re going to a large company,
yes it’s absolutely possible and I’ve seen multiple companies go to the change it essentially like deciding as a company usually like driven by the leadership team what are your priorities and then making sure that everybody,
is a line with a spiral that’s kind of essentially our job as Leaders at every level you could decide,
how what are the coyotes and how do we turn off like a line everybody to those and you can absolutely do those do that without calling people.
[36:34] There’s so many awesome ones here I’m an answer one with a quick thing here it says you would have been talking to design a leadership career track for engineers that don’t want to go into management with the wreck reports.
I’m going to ask everyone here to go Google search for Rent the Runway Camille’s engineering ladder look at it,
copy it she put it up there for going to use and it’s a really good way to use as a baseline for people who want to develop dual-track engineering career paths,
call for individual contributors and injuring leaders it is she was just Rent the Runway shoes the seat Pharmacy city of etsy believe it’s he has a book out called.
The managers path was I also highly recommend people to read it’s an awesome chapter by chapter guide into really being a good engineering leader right,
and I got to go,
the first chapter also teaches engineer’s how to be managed so on day one every single engineer gets a free copy of the managers path and they were required to read at least the first two to three chapters so highly recommend checking out the book and giving it to engineer.
I just want to see the Deciduous or problem has been sore for a couple of decades look at all the larger companies like them all the soldiers everybody has.
I want to wrap this up thank you everyone in the panel now the microphone works.