Patrick has spent his career applying his engineering talents to the healthcare industry. In that time he’s focused on learning and growing as an engineer, a teammate, team lead, and more recently as an engineering manager. He considers himself a people gardener and coalition builder and believes in people-first leadership. Patrick loves teaching and tackling people and process opportunities to help teams and individuals grow.
On today’s show we discuss communication, psychology, having a growth mindset and his upcoming conference talk.
[0:03] Christian Patrick welcome to the show.
[0:06] Thank you for having me, I really excited to be here.
[0:08] The absolutely and as we were talking just before you’ve actually been listening to a podcast for a little while to is that correct.
[0:15] I haven’t I’ve been really enjoying.
[0:17] Awesome I have to repeat the what is a long time listener first-time caller joke read have to put it in there.
[0:24] ISO and where are you actually calling from today Patrick.
[0:28] So I’m calling in from New York City I work at a startup here New York in healthcare and.
[0:36] Excellent I should have connected with you I was in New York about 2 weeks ago so next time I’m back in the area I will give you a I’ll send you a stock or something the movie connect.
[0:45] Yeah I would be great I would love it.
[0:47] All right so awesome Patrick as I do with all my guests if you could just go into a very high-level background of what you think the important pieces are of how you got to be where you are today.
[0:57] Absolutely so like most people I started out as an engineer I remember having a lot of conversations with my family with my wife around like we are goals,
most of those tended to end up with me saying I’m just going to be a more senior engineer that’s what I want to do,
but in my previous role I was at hospital system in Philadelphia and my manager introduced me to this training at the hospital gave two people that were trying to make their way up in the organization,
and it was around the training and really the goal with change agent training was to,
teach you how to be a facilitator how to help groups problem solved and how they like to help people get a consensus and make change happen in an organization,
and that was my first test first teased,
set of skills that I had really focused on previously. Kind of open my eyes to this craft that I wanted to develop,
I use that not going to help me towards my next step of being a lead engineer and then,
add a new training opportunities come around for lean process Improvement training being trained to be What’s called the lean leader.
[2:12] And that help me grow in focus in terms of and see things in terms of,
value in the value that something was generating and if it wasn’t generating value then we considered it wasteful.
[2:27] Janet help me with like problem solving solving helping others problem solve,
really that I towards value and trying to set a foundation for a management style for myself and then from there,
I had transitioned into a manager role.
[2:45] Was building and growing a team was really excited about it was also in this kind of like new round that wasn’t familiar for me and ended up being kind of stressful.
Can I have a friend at the organization and she let me know that she was going to be hosting a pilot for a mindfulness and stress reduction program that she wanted to start at our organization.
Little did I know that led into me learning about the growth mindset positive psychology and kind of learning more about the way our brains were.
And that really helped me change and adjust how I saw and out with myself but also with how I met Road in coach maionchi.
[3:30] Sharon will get into I think I’m number of those aspects kind of later in the show as we dive deeper into it can each of the different points of those I think I remember if you also did you start a company at some point is that true.
[3:42] I did yeah so I graduating college I’ve been working part-time and I decided I wanted to just.
I started a company right out of college I was doing web development application development Consulting I had a few studies science really love to work,
really love owning my own work but I didn’t love the other parts of running a business so I can love dealing with finances I didn’t love dealing with sales or worrying about where my next paycheck was going to come from.
And I didn’t really have an opportunity to be part of the team.
And so when I made the transition to the health system in Philadelphia I was really looking for an opportunity to focus on Healthcare and to be someplace where I could be part of the team.
[4:33] Yeah I think that’s it that’s an interesting point of our galaxies although as I often talked about in the show is you become higher kind of in the hierarchy of being a leader it does get lonely
I’ve also found two I had started a company myself out of college it’s when you going things alone especially that that’s really lonely.
Yeah I’ve known as share that for the troubles with talk to it does get hard.
[4:58] I ask this again to all of my guests but as you transition from the icy being an engineer
how you talked about the coming in your new manager coming to some of the lean manager items but what was what was the mistake that you made that you need to look back on pain and cringe,
Oriental Sunday that stands out that you you’ve definitely learned something.
[5:22] I think when you start off you try to take for granted that you have additional contacts that other people might not and that different people interpret things differently,
and so I definitely started with like an approach it like I’m just going to treat everybody the same and I’m going to share you know the information that I think is important for them to know going into a project right now.
And it took me a bit and I stumbled through kind of learning to recognize that I had to interact with each person differently and that.
In a multiple people to look at the same situation and Come Away with very different reactions and very different points of a conversation that they would remember.
So try to building that scale sat around understanding individual and how to cut a deal and talk to that individual and like what they valued in what.
Call Basil the world.
[6:18] Sure and how do you if there’s one thing that you could give advice to a software engineer that’s making the transition or brand new Suffern new manager that one piece of advice. That you would give him right now.
[6:32] I’d say prepare for the change and how you deliver value so when you’re in ICU deliver value directly.
You write code you solve a problem you help others solve problems.
In a more concrete indirect manner like I can look at programs that I built and I had a productive week because I directly delivered something and I had full control of that.
When you start to make your way up I’m in your movie into more of a manager role,
the way that you deliver value is like how you enable your team and others to be productive,
I’m in to help them grow in their roles and it is a a shift and something that you have to adjust to that like your output is not lines of code anymore or a future and a product output is like.
The way that you enable others to do what you were doing previously and I think that’s a hard transition for people so my advice would be to try to mentally prepare,
to make that change and start to see not only the work you do directly but the value of providing by helping others be productive.
[7:39] Sure that’s definitely great point and that comes up a lot too because sometimes it can be frustrating for people when they,
can’t see a little bit more of that tangible value that they’re providing instantaneously or at the end of a Sprint with dealing with people now in teams that feedback and value that you get is it right much longer scale-like.
Return Seattle no the other thing that that we talked about here you are you’re going to be giving a conference talk soon.
And your talk is about communication growth mindset in Psychology so first of all congratulations on speaking of me that’s always a there was a great achievement and nerve-wracking kind of all the same time.
[8:22] Yes it is yes that I’m going to all those emotions out this month.
[8:26] Awesome. You want one thing I have one book that that I recommend all of my,
leaders and managers who want to speak is that really actually good book called resonate by Nancy Duarte disagree,
Ted Talk that she does as well and the book resume is really good as another book that’s a companion called cytology but the resident one for me I find was just a really good book to read,
not only about giving presentations you know the conference or something but really also about howling how to help communicate,
you and just if you’re going to talk in front of your team or you going to talk in front of an exec team or try to pitch an idea and there’s a lot of good information on that to 4
I just kind of her helping get ideas across so I’ll put that in the show note symbol to shut that I owe for a for anyone that’s going to be talking soon or just kind of in general wants to,
improve a little bit of both are there should have been there dialogue in their writing.
[9:31] I will be picking up this weekend.
[9:33] Text me so I know what conference will you be speaking at.
[9:38] It’s a conference is called bifrost it’s in Toronto and it specifically in Engineering Management and leadership conference it’s a one-day conference
focusing on topics around people’s Journeys inside sin and tricks and tips in for people that are in or moving into leadership roles.
[9:57] You know that’s that’s awesome and they want that you’re speaking are you speaking at a conference like that that’s also good but I think the other thing that is just really.
Really good to is that,
when I started this podcast not that long ago I think it was really maybe one or two conferences or meet up sort of around just to the fact of how do we improve engineering leadership like it was something.
She was separate and should be worked on right actually worked on and now,
there’s a conference you just mentioned there’s the calibrate conference there is the lead developer there’s a ton of them I know you know when I started my podcast is really just hang III started at the same time.
That I’m Jerry Lee also started if you’re in the San Francisco area this offer kind of engineering leadership meet up and.
What started I think the first meet up at 20 people and then earlier this year he had his first conference and there was something like six hundred people there was a wild you know success
but it was just awesome to to get the disc community of people are all realizing that hey you becoming a manager,
is not just something that happens and it requires work and investment and I certainly ways to improve it and then improving it will to your point will help you and your teams provide better value for your customers in here.
[11:19] I had to let some you know and are on the show from a gas if we’re lucky because we’re going to get a little bit of preview of The Talk topics that are going to be talking about so it’s a special preview you know a prequel to your conference here
let’s go to some of the topics I think the first one was communication so so foundational so critical,
but it’s usually an afterthought so tell me a little bit about communication why it’s important and do you know some of the things I might be talking about.
[11:48] Sure so like I mentioned before you know what communication the part that’s hard for each of us as an individual to understand is that the words that were saying and the intent behind it,
isn’t always interpreted the same way by our audience right,
so they have their experiences and their background and the way that they use language to interpret the words that that we share and someone could say something in slack email,
or you know directly in person and you’re not quite sure did they mean it the positive way that they meet at the snarky way.
[12:25] You know I had a conversation recently with an engineer on my team and I asked them to start to consider communication.
I was just an important part of his craft the way that he would think about and looked at.
The more day-to-day activity refactoring code,
communication is just as important because it really impacts the general feeling that a teen might have,
I’m a really big proponent of the importance and value of teamwork and communication I believe it allows us to do our best to work and to deliver our best work and provide the most value to our organization and so communication is a key part of that,
we need to be able to communicate clearly and make sure that our intent is coming across properly onto our audience and part of that is understanding who our audience is and making sure that we are communicating in a way that they will understand.
[13:24] So important that you mentioned something just a second ago and.
It’s locked and has most of us probably use slack on a on a day-to-day basis on a all the time I lost you were over at work is is pretty much,
almost fully distributed and slack is such an important part of it but you mention it’s really hard sometimes to understand the intent.
Behind slack messages it’s a short form does emojis I’m dealing with people across all different countries and and it’s very contextually
set aware and sent it as a sensitive about what is it what an emoji means you tell me a little bit you know how do you how do you help managers are or even teams to better improve their getting there in 10 to cross using a medium like Slack.
[14:14] Sure so I start usually with asking them what did they mean by what they said.
To give me like the stock of Beast version of what they were trying to get across.
And Austin just by asking them what did they mean to say or what were they trying to say I get the version of what they did say that they probably should have put out there and so it’s just going to be back loop around.
The way that you phrase something or way that you said something left too much up to interpretation,
and I didn’t really understand what you meant and so probably other people might also not understand what you meant and I try to coach people towards being clearer in in what they say,
understanding that others might not interpret what they said the way that they meant it.
I think kind of making sure people think back to what the meeting is is important to help them think about how they communicate.
anything that you have is there any of you said any sort of codified formal expectations around what good are were unacceptable communication might look like with her in person on a team between people are over soccer email.
[15:31] I tried it have that feedback be more one-on-one based on that person and how their interactions are going rather than Spotify anything specific I’m glad you asked that people try to do,
make sure that they’re coming from a place of teamwork and working together and B+ coming to a solution you know whether you’re talking to someone within your own department or in a different department.
You know we’re all trying to solve the problem and we all need to work together to be successful at that and I just ask people.
Communicate from that perspective that we are all trying to solve problems together and we need to be successful by doing that together.
[16:14] Absolutely and I think communication which often gets overlooked is as much about the listening in the receiving as it is about the the talking into giving.
One of the important things I think is under one of the the guy that did Etsy and and which is another common thing used elsewhere is the presumption of good intent and if someone saying something to you.
Make the Assumption whether or not it’s true that the intent behind what they said was good and then and then have a response from that ass.
[16:47] We have that as one of our company values.
[16:51] Great and I was talking to my colleagues just about this today and she said not only is it good
to assume that good intent because they might it’s actually good even if they don’t because you come across in our conversation as you know as the one who’s taking The High Ground professional and you won’t escalate something,
I need to say.
[17:09] Absolutely you know that that ties and I’m sorry.
[17:14] No yeah go ahead Patrick.
[17:15] I was going to say that ties into kind of another part of my talk around our brains work.
And and how I think that.
[17:25] Especially for engineers and how we come up through our careers you know our brains by default our wire to spot danger right are our primary goal is survival in our brains are wired for that by default.
And then you have so you have to default behavior that your brain has and you had on top of that,
the things that we tend to Value about good Engineers especially as you’re making your way up to your career around,
spotting problems looking for issues and code,
looking for like potential problems and work laws and stops and you know great job like you found a bug great job you like figure it out these edge cases,
you know a lot of your career is around spotting negativity,
and so you have this reinforcing behavior of progressing through your career by how well you can spot problems and it can like account for those potential problems with your default behavior of your brain,
edit needs to,
you know the stereotype in engineering of people being cynical of being negatives of mistrust and we have to work to break those patterns in those behaviors,
you know our brains are wired to the kind of cheek the least.
[18:47] Our brains are wired to take an approach to do the least amount of thinking so we formed these habits and these default responses that we take,
you can see this if you have a default reaction to when someone says something and you see someone else like roll their eyes all the time,
we have these habits that are our brains default.
And we have to work to reprogram that and change the way that we looked at our interactions you know if you take the approach of assuming best intentions.
Even for our own sanity it’s important to look at situations,
and break the habits that get us to negativity because getting that leaf in that stuff from just being more senior engineer especially moving towards people management.
You need to tell people make the progression from spotting problems to solving.
[19:43] The excellent.
[19:44] Yeah and it’s part of that is how we rewire our brains and how we look and respond to things by the Fall.
As an example in a one-on-one I might ask someone what’s what’s one thing we should be doing better as a team.
No it’s what’s one thing that we could improve.
I’ll try and I’m not always great at it but I’ll try week-to-week to find one positive thing that I can tell someone I noticed you know I really appreciate it someone’s throat Asana code review.
I really appreciated how someone spoke up in a meeting,
reinforce the positive behaviors that we want to see out of other people and help to build those Pathways so that when they’re in a new situation or they’re dealing with something they’re going to think about it from
the perspective of how do I make this better how do I improve the situation how do I assume that Dustin 10th W want them to do.
[20:46] I’m going to point out something in the examples you just gave and this is important for for new managers you’re very specific,
in the feedback that you gave which is very important. Just you did a good job but but you know you pointed out a very specific example,
of you know why and I’ll even go a little further like that was good and then go into why that was good but I think if you if you do that to it becomes much more impactful for people and they’ll they’ll take it and be able to actually have actionable inside of the earnings.
It’s interesting we just add adult cereal we just had a new manager and SLT off site with we brought in some when we went through some
it’s some kind of leadership coaching and one of the things we all did was going to have to do a Myers-Briggs personality types right and it always shows up we have this default type but,
your to your point two in one of the things that we talked about at the sauce site was everyone has their default side jet type just like you mentioned,
are your brain might be wired a certain way to be lazy in some ways but it does not mean right doesn’t mean you can’t perform like another one of the types
and is that going from being an IC to a manager sometimes,
forces you to actually maybe you’ll go out of your normal comfort zone your default Pathways to do something that’s a little different,
but that’s not bad it just takes a little more work.
[22:12] Right it’s a bird it’s it’s skill and it’s things that we can learn and develop over time and that’s the the next part of my talk around the growth mindset.
And I’m definitely someone who would characterize myself as being an introvert I don’t like speaking in front of groups of people generally very quiet very shy very in.
And I used to look at situations and think that’s just something I’m not good at that’s just a skill I don’t have.
Until I started learning about the way that our brains work and about the growth mindset versus being fixed and what I describe the four is that example of being fixed I am good at coding but I’m not I’m not good at.
Sitting in front of a.
[23:00] Then what I learned and and what I push myself with is to break myself out of that way of thinking I’m in understand that these are all skills that you can develop and grow over time.
And so every year for the last couple of years since I learned about this I set a goal for myself to help me grow outside of my comfort zone and to let me see that I can develop into work on a skill,
outside of what I think are my default skills so I’m back in 2017.
I signed up to be an instructor for a coding bootcamp and I spend six months teaching class and teaching people how to become edgeineers people that were coming from diverse backgrounds with varying levels of Education.
You know it was a way for me to force myself a couple times a week to get up in front of a group of 25 students,
explain technology to that and program meet you there,
and figure out what way is work better to get a point to come across and she get myself comfortable with speaking in front of a group on a regular basis.
[24:11] I remember when I started that I ended my first class and I turn to my teaching assistants and I said.
I could probably go an entire week without talking like I filled my quota I just don’t want to talk to anyone anymore for the rest of this week.
And by the end of that class it’s all great and I felt energized 6 months later.
2018 I set a goal for myself of doing a talk at a conference.
I didn’t quite make 2018 I’m speaking this year but it was the next step for me to push myself out of my comfort zones and actually be up and do a presentation like that in front of an audience on a topic that I’m passionate.
[24:59] Announcement Aztec how to say that’s that and for people to write him and it’s it’s about setting a goal and like I said it happened in 18 but it happened this year that’s all that really matters right you’re making progress.
[25:10] Righttime setting new bars and and stretching what I consider are my own limits and I set a goal for myself to do that every year.
[25:19] Awesome and you know I do want to point out this is for for my listeners here this is Patrick’s first podcast,
so round of applause if you can’t hear right but you know again thank you for coming on the show which is which is not always easy I think you know I’ve had,
I got some podcast gas and,
they freaked out a little bit sometimes before the show that I never going to guess what I’m going to say I’m going to sound stupid I don’t like the sound of my own voice and you’re gone. You’re going to be okay.
[25:50] It’s it’s interesting that you bring that up because that’s another part what do you think about how our brains work and we think about how we can change how we see experiences City energy,
when you’re nervous and the energy that you feel when you’re excited actually pretty close.
What is how you frame it for yourself and how you think about it so coming into this situation as an example and before my talk.
I will spend a couple days,
reminding myself that I’m excited to do this I’m excited to get up and share my lessons learned that you’re my background with others and I feel excited and positive about the situation I’m going in,
we’re a couple years ago I would have just been nervous and only seen it as nerves and let that self that negative self-talk get to me around,
it not going well the sound of my voice being bad me not sounding intelligent and I actively take the time now.
To reframe the situation before I go into it so that I see it as a positive.
[26:58] Excellent that’s really good advice yeah that’s that’s I’ve heard that before too and it really makes a lot of sense and I think it’s it’s awesome that
to my listeners here to that that’s a really great way to try to practice that I refocused at you know take control the situation and use it to your data.
At what this growth mindset you how do you use that with members of your team ride you have any examples where you’ve seen this before you’ve been able to coach somebody to
you do something they didn’t think they could you innately do or I know what what kind of coaching Styles you use to help you.
[27:32] I look for opportunities for them I find I try to find a small steps forward,
so depending on the person’s personality some people like myself might be a little less unsure of their abilities or their skills and I find,
these cam micro improvements and I’ll suggest that they take this stuff like.
Putting together a future plan where they haven’t done one before or asking them to speak in front of our team just our team but speak in front of our team on a topic that they either worked on or they done,
I’m going to try to tie back to something.
They’re already interested in the subject of but I definitely look for the small ways to kind of push people a little bit outside of their comfort zone,
maybe look at a situation a little bit differently than they would have previously.
[28:25] So if I see someone had a negative response to do something that was shared by and I’ll try to help them with that reframing,
and give them tips on like how to look at how they communicate how they think about how they’re communicating around this topic with.
Total views I might have someone to think of them as teaching opportunities you know not everyone is at the same level not everyone has the same,
Barber what they consider a quality code review you know everybody has their perspective of the situation or the task,
and so if you if you frame it from like this is an opportunity for me to teach someone else and you phrase how you talk around that.
Jordan 10 in your purpose is going to come across so much better then if you try to just dictate something to someone.
[29:18] No absolutely that’s that’s it fellows point and
I’m a firm huge bleeder about the havior in Psychology in and how it is so intricately involved with everything we do in every day and how important it is
to understand those underpinnings as a manager and leader of organizations that it is so important to my My Philosophy is a,
matured through engineering career path item in you you start off Technologies the only thing.
And is not serve evolve that it becomes almost the last thing for me not that I don’t love it on Packard hard and but it’s
but it’s the people in the Dynamics of the people in the right people in the right spots and Heather acting together,
enables us to Ben be much more effective,
I producing really really good software and technology which as you pointed out earlier is really the reason we’re doing that is ultimately we’re providing value,
two other people in the world and how do we produce the most value the most effective.
[30:20] Absolutely yeah it’s it’s that the people side of it and the Team Dynamics side of it that definitely are much more engaging for me at this point in my career then if you would ask me even 5 years ago.
[30:35] And they also are probably some of the most complex things that keep managers including myself up at night and they are
I like to describe them to new injury managers just think of people and teams has just really complex systems see how do you how do you do system up in position and interfaces trading contracts
but it’s it’s not easy and dealing with people,
is not binary so it’s more analog and there is because it’s not allowed and there’s there’s the permutations are just infinitely greater.
One of the things I was reading one of your your blog post I wrote and you had a quote on there that’s too. It said I to find a high-performing engineering team is one does not need me,
Define that a little bit what do you mean by that and when how does that a philosophy that you live.
[31:27] Short so I think.
Too many items back to that team Dynamic and interpersonal way of communicating and interacting.
Tamia and ideal high-performing team is one that’s perfectly child that’s making good decisions and is not dependent on me.
Operate independently they function as a very strong team that communicate very well and they just make good decisions and keep seeking value and delivering value.
For me that me that would be a situation where like I don’t need to do anything because I’ve already given them,
the tools and techniques to use and and a way of working that works where I can go and be on vacation and not worry about it.
[32:19] Exactly and how do you know that involves a how would you recommend other managers to help to support a nurturing environment where that starts to happen.
[32:31] I think it starts with your one-on-ones and that more frequent feedback that you’re giving to your
can you Mandy individuals on your team in around giving context right helping them understand your thought process and how you came to a specific conclusion and helping people understand that sometimes you have to be okay with ambiguity,
you’re not always going to have all the pieces of information you would need to make the best decision but,
you make the best decision you can with the information that you have available to you.
And so I will work with them as an individual I will work with them as a team around how do they make decisions how do they see the world out of the think about the problems are tackling and what value are they trying to provide and how are they measuring.
[33:22] And I think it’s super important part of that is a manager though is also than supporting the decisions that they do.
[33:28] Yeah yeah it’s it’s um you’re supporting the decisions that are made by the team and.
When you support their decisions and you own it with them right like if I Empower my team to make a decision on something I’m going to back them up,
and talk to other people about why we won with that decision and how was the best decision we can make at the time,
and show them that I support them in that decision and I trust that right like I trust my team to make good decisions,
and I have to demonstrate that trust to them.
[34:12] That’s really great great point that you mention before you were instructor at the boot camp at Rutgers,
you would you recommend doing some of that for other managers you think it helped you in your like being a better manager but it being a better leader.
[34:27] Absolutely did it forces you to find different ways,
communicating the same thing so that it sticks with your audience because your audience is going to be buried,
you know you’re your audience isn’t already a group of Engineers your audience is a group of people that want to get into and become engineers and so you have to learn how to phrase things and explain things.
Over and over and in different ways so that people get it and it sticks.
And it just helps you understand how to do that better with your own team and that you have to tailor the way that you communicate to the audience,
araneus isn’t always going to be your engineer’s you’re dealing with people in the business you’re dealing with product managers or do you have to tailor how you communicate,
to those around you and having to explain and cheap someone how to be a programmer and engineer,
is it fun and relatable way to do that is to build a skill set.
[35:29] Yeah and I think it’s a win-win especially if you can,
game that you know advancement and Improvement on your own side but also if you’re going to volunteer your time for something like a code bootcamp you know you’re also can help,
baby other people may be members of underrepresented groups that didn’t go to a traditional University or get a CS degree that you can also help them get into,
you’ll be the you know software engineering Fields as well and it and I certainly recommend a lot of my listeners out there to know if you have the ability,
do you can one-up you or your skills and at the same time you can help in other people get into our industry that could greatly benefit from doing so.
[36:13] How people change their lives.
[36:17] Yeah absolutely Patrick any any resources that you would recommend for you no new managers or anything good that you’ve kind of read or watch recently.
[36:27] There are a million interesting books out there I definitely would recommend all of the lead developer conference videos I haven’t been able to attend the conference yet but I definitely,
will spend the time to go through all the videos that end up online I found that super valuable.
[36:47] There’s one coming up in New York for you soon in April.
[36:48] Yes yes I’m going to think I have a scheduling contact but I’m going to try to go to that one.
[36:55] Anything else that you might recommend.
[36:59] I think just focus on the parts of your crafts that are not engineering specific.
Look for books or content around communication and effective communication now there’s a great book that I recommend to a lot of people called crucial conversations.
And it’s around giving feedback and how to how to communicate around topics that aren’t necessarily easy with others and I would say anything in that Realm,
communication Styles in communicating effectively and how your brain works in the growth mindset there’s lots of content out there it’s yours for the choosing and I think.
The biggest part of that for me when I talk to people is consider that part of your craft especially as you move up into higher and higher leadership roles that side of the crap is more and more important.
[37:59] Absolutely couldn’t agree more No Patrick if anyone wanted to reach out to you to invite you to speak another conference or just to talk about any of the topics we have discussed today what’s the best rate the best way for people to contact.
[38:12] I’m on Twitter my Twitter handle is Patrick J Pena Patrick J and then Pena after my last name I’m also on LinkedIn you can find me on medium,
Britain a little bit for myself and a little bit for The Country Network.
[38:29] Awesome both Patrick appreciate it it’s getting later in the day on a Friday in New York so I really appreciate the the time to have this conversation today really.
[38:39] It was my pleasure thank you so much for having me.
[38:42] Thank you bye.