How to Leave a Company as a Manager by Dennis Nerush

Dennis NerushDennis is the Head of Integration at HiredScore, a startup that helps large companies achieve their hiring and recruiting goals using deep system integrations and AI.  Dennis is a former team and group leader at Sears Israel working on large scale social e-commerce platform and before that he was a team leader and a full stack developer at the Israeli Air Force.   He is passionate about people growth and company culture.

On today’s episode we discuss the challenges, both logistical and emotional, when a manager decides to leave their team and company.  This is based on Dennis’ personal experience leaving his past company and a blog post he wrote about it.

Contact Info:

https://medium.com/@dennisnerush

https://twitter.com/DennisNerush

https://hiredscore.com 

Show Notes:

The hard thing about hard things: When a manager decides to quit

The Five Dysfunctions of a Team: A Leadership Fable

Managing Humans: Biting and Humorous Tales of a Software Engineering Manager

The Score Takes Care of Itself: My Philosophy of Leadership

 

 

Read Full Transcript

Christian Mccarrick:
[0:02] Good afternoon Dennis welcome to the show.

Denis Nerush:
[0:05] Thank you excited to be here.

Christian Mccarrick:
[0:08] And Dennis you’re calling in remote from today so where you actually are calling in from today.

Denis Nerush:
[0:13] Well I’m coming in from Tel Aviv which is in this role in the house.

Christian Mccarrick:
[0:18] Okay great what time is it there in the evening.

Denis Nerush:
[0:22] Yeah actually it’s already 8 p.m.

Christian Mccarrick:
[0:25] Well thank you very much for giving a part of your Friday evening to have this conversation with me I appreciate it.

Denis Nerush:
[0:30] Of course definitely.

Christian Mccarrick:
[0:32] So Dennis as I do with most of my gas to give them a little bit of background and some contacts if you can give me a kind of just a little bit of the background of where you got to be where you are today.

Denis Nerush:
[0:44] Course well today on the head of Integrations and cool startup called higher score well is a company that helps large organizations North companies to achieve a hiring and recruiting goals.
Using dip dip system Integrations and II.

[1:02] I’ve been just a few months ago I was a team leader and a manager in the company called Sears and Israel start a bit today American Sears.
Message C company has bought and turned into a branch here in Israel.
Be there for three years and before that I started myself a career as a software developer and then turned 14 in the Israeli Air Force.
I’ve been there for almost 7 years.

Christian Mccarrick:
[1:35] OK Google great great and you you when you were in the Air Force as did you get into your first heard of management leadership roles there or was it at one of the one of the companies after that.

Denis Nerush:
[1:48] Yeah I started basically in his room everyday almost every person who is after 18 turns 18 years old.
Has to go to the Army for for at least 2 or 3 years afterwards you can stand,
the more advanced,
miniature miniature Oreo like becoming a commander so basically after 2 years in the Air Force for being a developer I went to the office or school.
Where I become an officer in the unit.
I started to be a commander and which basically means being a team leader of a bunch of people.

Christian Mccarrick:
[2:37] And I mean I think that’s an interesting background in in.
And training that you received a lot of people and part of the reason why I do this podcast. I think a lot of people going into especially technology management,
come from backgrounds where,
they don’t have much of a of a training ability that they get no you feel that that sort of Officer leadership training in the Army really helped you to get give you the skills needed to become a better leader manager for your teams.

Denis Nerush:
[3:06] Will definitely I mean do you need most of the books and shows that you hear about and people who talk about leadership and management.
Are you and I think majority of them are from the Army tell you not to like different a Navy SEAL stories and in commanders so being,
part of an army part part of an organization which were the commanders leave the way it’s something that definitely brings you bring up brings up your skills.
But I must say that it’s not enough I’m in being a commander and being the office of school and being surrounded by army people sucking the definitely helps.
But I think that’s a lot of my my skills and my abilities that I have but I’ve developed you in my years in the army or,
actually but you’re reading a lot of different books different materials and then discussing them of my beers,
so it’s a combination of both reading and trying to understand things that are not smart people have brought about.
Read about and also discussing this with friends who can relate.
Tubidy llamas in the problems that you’re facing and the challenges and you can like talking about it if you can actually.
Not only saw them but you owe yourself and the leader and as a manager.

Christian Mccarrick:
[4:28] I think that’s a great Point Denis I think that you no matter what your background is and no matter what your level is of being a manager that having a group of people list of peers.
Who are going through similar challenges that you can discuss these items and whether it’s disgusting explicit.

[4:47] Issues you’re facing on the job or is you mentioned you were discussing a theory or some case studies at my being a book.
Like I said I think that that discussion and a peer group is definitely important and I and I encourage you recommend all my listeners.
Define some of those people whether formally or informally too kind of creators relationships because I do feel it will really be a great help.
I’ll for you on your career path right thank you for sharing that.

Denis Nerush:
[5:13] Course of course this is I think it’s like the most important thing and then I think like a message cuz I know and some some tips for first-time managers to something that actually took me well turn the stand.
You should have been you become a manager you feel that’s my old responsibilities of being a manager of being the one who solves problem is only on you so basically and then you start.
You almost never share your problems with you you don’t want to admit them anyway.
So you definitely don’t want to share any challenges in the face so after hopefully after awhile you really understand this with me notice you really so so promising to really,
be the leader you would want to be and you want the things I want people in my spirit you must expect to other people.

Christian Mccarrick:
[6:02] Yeah absolutely so and this is something I asked, I guess dinner is that even though you’ve had some uniform a training what we all make mistakes it do any mistakes stand out for you on you know what it was your time.
I didn’t the army or any of the companies after that kind of say you know that I did make a mistake and this is what I learned from it.

Denis Nerush:
[6:22] I definitely will have made it took me awhile to the one that is.
It’s on if you think about it in the past it’s an obvious one.
It wasn’t very obvious to me so basically I think that again.
What do you usually do all your cards to yourself you don’t you don’t share your plans and you don’t share a lot of information being a manager.
You’re in a meeting with your team is not.
You’re talking to your managers who are in the automated so basically you have a much wider contacts around the problems make your company solving around the different directions than companies going.
This is huge and she was very boring because this is actually the Y but they’re the core of of your cup of water company does the things she does and,
the slip in the problem usually Move Young ranchers is that’s missing this context doesn’t go down to their people.
They hold it I’ll let you know.
And I’ll really try to actually explain and provide the additional points of view.
That’s the mr. King usually needs so please for me I had I was leading an important project a really huge one.

[7:56] We had a nice to be king from the company.
And I was in like in the meetings with the senior management and discussing business between potential and different strategies and I was failing to provide the stick back to my team to provide what was his contacts why we decided to do with the siding,
why we’re not doing the things we should do I was kind of keeping it to myself and only you know only.

[8:21] Only answering only providing the when I was asking and not by myself look like pushing Apple.

Christian Mccarrick:
[8:30] Proactively.

Denis Nerush:
[8:32] Yeah exactly.
So I think that I should have realized it.
This is something but it’s like a switch when I turn it to turn in my mind and then I start to share.
You sure are the things that are important.
Size of an Olympic Nick Nick would contact me but your team needs,
but also a different stuff and different things but not everyone should hear them all the time you know about things that are not really ready,
some discussions but maybe I’m not relevant to all the people,
only after a while I realize that and I started to get more contacts to my team letting them join why we’re doing thanks.
Also probably hearing them if you can take him to my management and basically creating this kind of unit that you would understand why they’re doing things with you.
Actually moving the entire product and the company took to the right direction because everyone are aligned and everyone is being hurt.

Christian Mccarrick:
[9:55] Yeah I think those are those are two very good points that you you bring up there.

[10:40] Giving the employees that are doing the work context around why they’re doing the work is so important for their their their happiness and their job satisfaction to know that what they’re doing is tied into.
You know the corporate strategy of where we’re trying to achieve is a company so it’s a very good point that you that you definitely made there.
And you know I think that’s that’s one of the big things that a lot of managers make in the beginning is as you mentioned before.
One keeping everything to yourself you not involving other people that you are not providing the context and then the other thing you mentioned is feedback up.
I think it’s it’s very important that not only do you take the feedback from your team members but that they actually see that you are a voice for them right that you’re evangelizing for them that you have their back and they’re bringing those concerns or ideas.
Further up the chain and hopefully you know your manager is listening to what you’re saying as well.

[11:38] Today was one of the things I want to I want to switch gears here a little bit and I want to spend the rest of the show discussing a topic that I haven’t discussed very much before on the show and that’s leaving a company when you’re mad at.

[11:51] And you recently wrote about this experience in a blog post called you know when a manager decides to quit.

[11:57] And I’ll post that I’ll link to that on the show notes and it is interesting topic because.
You know it raises a lot of lot of emotion around it there’s a lot of feelings and uncertainty and Stress and Anxiety not just for you I think but.
You know it once that information gets out at the teams and it off personally.
You have have left jobs not just as a manager but also as head of engineering.

[12:23] And you know how come the more senior the bigger impact it has and I think this is a is a really good conversation to have for some our listeners who who might be going to the process or they might be thinking about changing companies.
And there really isn’t a lot of information about that so that one I appreciate.
Kind of opening up a little bit and giving back to the community in writing about this because I think it’s a it’s something that isn’t talked about it much so.

[12:48] Appreciate that so you know I’m not that’s that’s kind of why did you feel that.

[12:56] You this was something you you needed to share and why do you think it was important for you to try to publish that blog post was it was it for you to kind of just.
A cathartic to get the information out or did you really feel that you know other people should should kind of learn from your lessons as well.

Denis Nerush:
[13:12] Well basically then I decided to.
Came to the point where I decided that it’s time for a change in Cypress to leave.
One of the things that I start to do was basically the same thing I always do when I need more contacts to try to get more information I start I wanted to read about it,
I mean I’m not the first manager and that’s what I just want to say that.
It’s about a manager decides to a developer.
Cool site to change his job.

[13:59] That rather than a manager was responsible for people.
Show as a manager who was responsible for the last message I was responsible for two teams.
If it’s up to 50 different things and I wanted you to see whatever other managers will do in such situations because usually will be open and everything aligned right I mean OK Google whatever you want then.
Information about everywhere I was really surprised to find,
almost numb no information no post no articles. Not really good books,
about about this topic and manager is not something to grow his team for great and you know like the Next Generation culture Improvement, including processes that I got her.
It’s about what do you do as a manager was looking the company.
Or the manager as what’s your next step is not only a manager at a person.
Okay you got your company make sure just to feel those papers don’t forget to do that in that you’re next door knocks you next time it’s supposed to be la blah blah but.
For me it was really weird because as a manager.
Call my company and former teams to make sure that I leave you won’t destroy them.
Maybe you know I’m not it’s not a family.

[15:36] Responsibilities you have a unique knowledge perhaps all those things are important and when you decide to leave just like that.
So I know some people disappear information about this topic.
I’m decided to divide about it because I have a personal blog which is running already I think almost 6 years.
We started and you know Alexis about management skills.
So it’s right for me it made perfect sense to write it there and share it with everyone and it’s no problem a lot of people.
I got a lot of different the feedback from the people who sings thank you who were spirit for who were in the same face with really agreed that the things that I said I’m not.
I think it’s someone who look look look up.
Actually help them not doing the exact same exact things that I decided to do because again this personal this for me but it will give you some.
Something with you can compare to and then decide on your own this is why I decided to write it and share it.

Christian Mccarrick:
[17:09] Great well and I do appreciate it and I think the listeners here once he publish this podcast it’ll help the also expand that audiences well and get people definitely interested in listening to it and I think it’s very helpful.
So again thank you for sharing.

[17:26] Where can I get me back to the community we all feel it’s important as managers to improve managers and managers lives in this is this is definitely a whole that need to be filled.

[17:36] In your post you could have broke it down into a four-step plan for leaving.

[17:41] Is interesting there’s there’s a there’s a saying out there for before it’s it’s you leave your job twice and you were the first time was when you make the decision to leave and then the second time is when you actually you know leave the company.

[17:54] Right and I think there’s a lot of people with their individual contributors or managers Who deliver already decided in their head.
That maybe it’s time for whatever reason you know when it’s personal and it’s very single person out there with the choices are they make that they decide that this is the right time and I don’t think we’re going to get into that and this show.

[18:20] They made the decision and now you know you talked about it at least for you it kind of four step plan you did and the first thing was put your Shields down and removing bottlenecks so why don’t you explain a little bit about what that means to to my audience.

Denis Nerush:
[18:34] Of course well.
This plan was actually the steps that I decided to take for myself because the second I realize that I’m and I want to leave a company.
I didn’t go running around trying to you know it looking for new jobs near for changes.
Posting that accept offer someone from LinkedIn and that’s it.
Lost it an end up going to block it sick around slug.
Is going to be on Regular Show slack she has a really great dinner she block with and regulation shadow in the face.
Where we s people who work in any company decide to,
which we are willing to be willing to accept this for mine because mine said that we’re going to leave our company.
Cuz if you think about it when you start your journey usually don’t want to hear about the,
all you care about is I’m going to I’m going to nail this job,
is it going to be great I’m going to be better her successful in this company so we’re what’s gold chains down,
so basically realizing that.
She’s basically what made me start to think about myself as a manager in this company what am I doing right now if I’ll be gone.

[20:14] Mytmobile soccer what’s what what unique knowledge do I have.
But again if when I’ll be gone but you won’t be here will have really hard time to handle it.
Maybe it’s technical expertise maybe it’s something else I’m connections sound me it even goes back to ridiculous things like,
some passwords to some servers and you keep them you know in some in some temporary folder.

Christian Mccarrick:
[20:43] Sure.

Denis Nerush:
[20:43] Everyone will say some of them.
But I tried to nap all of them.
I was the one who in one of my team’s leading the processes of a scrum in the edge of variable during an issue of a back-to-back is offered a mistrial meetings that are happening.
And I wanted to make sure that my team is ready to beam self-managed about myself,
we were in a really good place isn’t even before I decided to leave but I wanted to make sure all the things that I were currently doing this every 1 or no stinking ATC.
What the people able to do by themselves so basically,
I started to actually working on that midnight letting other people from a team start to lead some of the samples processes making sure of it Elvis stuff that I what I have here then I will document that,
and the Public’s that places the places where my team can actually a cheetah and I must say that.
Spell mistake with young managers usually do is around this time is it wrong this place cuz being a young manager usually make that is usually caused by.
Like the fact that you wore a great developer back then.

[22:16] And you will and you will promote it maybe it’s for the good reasons because you’re also a good leader and they do not but it doesn’t matter usually you have some knowledge you were you had before he became a miniature.

[22:31] A young manager will usually keep this knowledge keep this expertise to himself.
What is the easiest thing to do so much easier to just doing the things that you do automatically when scaling scaling yourself and letting others learn and actually do those things.
So the managers usually don’t do this stuff so when you get to be straight this is place maybe come A huge bottle next because they have the only one being able to.
A working some system develop some pictures you know like.
Work with different tools no passwords contact people different stories but only know and understand why some things in the world.

Christian Mccarrick:
[23:22] Sure.

Denis Nerush:
[23:24] Check the trade managers old constantly have this mindset is notional.
What am I doing but I’m the only one who was able to do it and if I can identify such things I’m a scale into the team fail sometimes we learn how to make me learn.
You can relieve yourself from those desk and be sure what you’re thinking to yourself.

Christian Mccarrick:
[23:48] Yeah and I think that’s a good point it is this number one point you make whether you’re.
Leaving a team or not I think you know as you mention the word scaling and scaling yourself and scaling the team.
I think we’re Carlos of whether you’re leaving or not. Those are practices you should always sort of be cognizant of and look out for and try to make sure that you’re not the bottleneck for any processing your team I think what you’re leaving or not.

Denis Nerush:
[24:14] Yeah that’s okay.

Christian Mccarrick:
[24:16] And I do want to be clear at this point in the process though you haven’t told your team or communicated to anyone that you know you’ve kind of made the decision to leave right this is still all internal correct.

Denis Nerush:
[24:25] Yeah definition.

Christian Mccarrick:
[24:27] And you know I think that leads into the next step hear of your kind of the four steps that you wrote out for yourself and that next step is telling your manager in building a plan.
So what are you going to a little bit about what are the things that you did during that process.

Denis Nerush:
[24:45] Yeah definitely well I think this is one of the most important important.
Because actually do you feel comfortable but you’re not the bottleneck anymore at least emotional things then it’s time to do to take it out it’s very important that.
You don’t you don’t just come no one sunny afternoon to a manager and saying you know what.
I quit you appeared my 30-day notice and basically I’m going to take the rest of the days I use my my my days off.
And good luck.

[25:25] Can you be surprised but I know a bunch of people who actually discussing those kind of things both as individual contributors and his managers.
Because you and your manager had you know you had you wanted once you had to be a busy relationship.
And I think that most of us can relate with which Ross store manager we have some mutual trust we care for each other we want each other succeed.
And doing such a thing leaving because think about it.
It’s like a like a like a lightning a day like this because he’s not expecting it I guess,
quite the opposite maybe promoting you maybe,
maybe she’s happy with what you’re doing and she’s not know he’s concentrating on the different parts of the company that there but apparently it may be functioning that be not as good as your part and now your break.
Tube equation I don’t want to be in his place right now.

Christian Mccarrick:
[26:37] Sure that’s another podcast we can talk about how to as a manager how to do when your when your manager quits on you.

Denis Nerush:
[26:44] Yeah exactly exactly so basically what I told him it was I wanted one it was it was a really hard for me to experience this one that one day.
Take a glass of water with you you’ll need it so basically what I wanted to sell to talk tell him yes I’m quitting this is why and.
The most important thing that I wanted to enjoy understand that I’m still here.
I’m not want it I don’t want to miss is knock my 30-day notice.
We’re here until he and I and whoever should be involved decide if it’s okay to go.
But again I want to make sure that the company I’m leaving will still succeed I don’t want to get too I don’t want to make sure ruin it.
Going to do those things that you know we just go and.

[27:39] Leaf and leaf know the fires everywhere burning so I told him let’s make a stand.
Google who will take responsibility in ownership of a different domains with my teams are currently having should we should we have the teams as their currency,
structured what should you may be a change in the structure and the people remove people and merge different things in the company so basically,
I told him let’s make a plan together let’s start working the workers quickly.
Because again and it’s also important you don’t want to be in this phase 4 months.
Because you decided to quit you’re not yourself anymore if you don’t really can’t give 100% of yourself.
And basically and this is one of the things that actually hurt me the most all this time your fuel lines are people I mean as hard as hard as it sounds you know something that they are not.

[28:39] Do I have any plans when discussing the future review the future of them of them as people and as a team and the product.
Well you know but you know they’re so again I’m talking here about making plans and understanding of different things but this space should not last forever should be as quickly as possible but again it should be.
Injured result in a good assault plan and you and your manager should really know what what’s going to happen.
In in the in which ones with you in free and all the different aspects people-wise product-wise technotech Tech wise whatever.

Christian Mccarrick:
[29:21] Yeah you definitely bring up that good point of as a leader in an organization’s it’s hard to look out and lead her if you’re asking them because I have faith in you they have trust in you in some cases.
You know they’re there working the extra hours or weekend because of you personally because of how they believe in you into.
To continue to do that when you’ve lost faith maybe in the company or your roller you know you’re leaving as you point out it is hard I think that takes an emotional toll it has a me in the past as well to kind of look out and he’s people who Trust.

[29:54] You.

[29:55] And you know really you’re leaving and you feel like that you’re letting me down and you’re not being completely open and honest with them and that does Terry up inside a little bit you know that’s really been through that so I’m glad you brought that up.

Denis Nerush:
[30:06] I’m definitely.

Christian Mccarrick:
[30:09] No no what about the situation that this was brought up in some of the comments in your post you you’re in a situation maybe you’re in a company.
And maybe it’s just part of the reason you’re looking to leave because maybe values have changed your or what not or your manager is changed and you you feel like you might get.
That might be reacting to negatively.
And they might say okay you know we just want you out then you know here’s to turn in your your passwords shut your access and you’re gone you know next week.
Or do they know how do you how would you recommend anyone dealing with that type of situation if they know that that is if they have a fear that might happen.

Denis Nerush:
[30:50] Well first of all let me say this is a bad place to be in because if you’re part of a company that treats employees like that.
I think it’s something really negative in such a protest because.
Again if you had a manager or anybody who decided to quit and he’s in he’s coming to you and showing preview not in a way but now deal with that and I’m here to help.
I think it’s stupid not to let him not another hint healthy.

[31:17] Still I know there’s some companies that have such policies and basically what I think you should do you should know like you should know if this is something good to eat apples.
Well maybe be prepared to be more.

[31:41] I mean before the Sheraton manager starts already scratched schedule yourself.
Who you think shouldn’t lead your team can you promote something from someone from the VIN and then basically just help your manager,
do his work because if you shut your access and just tell you go away again maybe he will but it doesn’t matter because you still want your people and your team or teams to be happy and succeed.
So either way you should you should help them and not and you’re the one who have the best contacts about your team about her supposed to be able to use YouTube challenges.
So you should be the one who really thinks and provides most of different alternatives for people who can replace you and if I ownership.

[32:26] By the way you should be ready to go.

Christian Mccarrick:
[32:28] Yeah definitely that’s good point in the next step in this process you identify.
You’ve talk to your manager you’ve come up with a plan and if you said you try to keep that as short as possible now it’s time to sit down tell your team and then from there maybe as a public announcement or something else right so.

[32:47] What are the important things for you as you go through that stuff for the process.

Denis Nerush:
[32:52] Yeah well first of all I think this is the hardest hardest step but also it’s the most relieving one.
So hard is because you look people in the eye when you know he trusts you and you leave them everyday and out of the blue you say that you’re leaving.

[33:09] It’s hard I mean I talk to everyone individually like in a 1 and 1/2 L sharing them.
It’s really important to be able to explain the reasons for you going cuz.

[33:29] You keep me. Always as a manager and a leader share everything you know because sometimes is not healthy.
Being a manager also means that sometimes you need to be with you.
Being one that makes it has a context but you know what they are aware of living things may be with you maybe you agree.

[33:51] Not everything should get your team so here also I mean you can have different different reasons for why you’re leaving.
But you don’t you don’t you don’t always should share.
All the all the real reasons because of your issues and I’m not saying that this is my case but it’s something very common in the industry if you’re leaving because of your manager you should basically the manager of the people.
You don’t want to tell me people well my manager sucks so I’m going.
What are you trying to do here because those people will not know but,
a manager who they trusted didn’t trust his manager and this manager is actually a manager so should I stay should they go you don’t want them to this place.
Even if sometimes it’s the right place but you want them to discover that by themselves and no but you telling them before you go in so I think you should do is to really work.
Welcome to storing why you leaving.
You should be appointed you should buy it should be real I’m not telling you to lie but you need to understand what what are the words that you’re saying and what is the message that you wrote with you you’re saying.
Just because you always have a lot of power in your words especially when you’re saying something like this.
So creating story is really boring.
Imported to talk with people who care because you know we all will all the companies have those policies were you speak to some people and then he goes public.

[35:27] From my experience it never works you talk to 1 people to people and suddenly everyone knows even people outside of the company.

[35:34] So you should really stay should you don’t want your team and the people you care about.
Here such a thing not from you but from a friend of a friend of a friend so make sure that when you decide that this stuff is now your telling the truth people you’re seeing them people you care about make sure you a quick fast,
and don’t like spread it over a week or two just have having a session Obsession and.
As to if you don’t want to be in a position where inside your team you have people who know stuff and I was who don’t.

Christian Mccarrick:
[36:15] And one of the things you talk about is.

[36:18] It’s really important to make sure that your employees are feeling that they’re not being thrown into the unknown and and what are the things you how do you address that how do you make them feel that it’s it is scary but it’s going to be okay.

Denis Nerush:
[36:33] Yeah well it is also complex thing I mean everything around the stomach is complex but with the help of Yemen that you should too.
Stratus Cinco different plans plans for the future of the team who will lead them.
Who should be promoted how do you divide the ownership what is check what changes and what you should not have all the answers.
But at least eliminate not good Solutions.
You should articulates to the tiny things and the things that you want to participate.
Between.

[37:17] On the one hand you want to make sure of its kind of thrown to the unknown and that everything is okay and yeah you’re going but he’s been you leader and this is how the team is going to be structured and yada yada.
Let them figure out solutions to the problems so you want to create his balance where on the one town.
I know I know this is going to be okay but also on defining what.
It away again how goes it supposed to be released involves unanswered questions going to be result using very good.
And again this is a delicate situation because of the maturity of the team.
If you have a young team then you should probably solve most of the parts it’s have a mature mature team.
What is capable of of living in such a gray area in a hard time.
But it’s okay to let them help to Define their future decide how do they think it was supposed to be should be divided who should me.
Almost got it thanks.

Christian Mccarrick:
[38:38] Check your grade and then after you’re done all this you move into the last phase you identified which is the actual leaving and.
You know that time frame for different companies can be different amounts of time but now you’re at that final stage where the remaining steps left before you know you’re actually you’re actually gone.

Denis Nerush:
[38:59] Yeah well as I said before this is on one hand was the hardest part but after you finish all the talks over all the other conversations and the Public Announcement is out there.
It’s a huge relief because for all this time from your shield from going to Scheels went down until this this moment you know what’s done.

[39:23] You were you will you will keep giving you your Keeping a Secret a deep secret what effect affect a lot of people in the company or from your team and outside.
And now it’s finally out there everyone knows you don’t have to lie anymore you’ll have to hide so it’s every great really.
From here,
Genesis Birds different timeline for different people in different roles for meat was one month or so and I think that’s the most important in this this time,
and again if you’ve done the steps as I have said then basically the situation is this is like this.
If you are not a bottleneck of most of the processes Technologies and knowledge and different things that your team is team what teams are responsible for,
your team can handle,
by themselves vet valken the current and upcoming challenges because I can’t make it myself manage to make me know what they’re doing you and your manager identifying a plan where how you should be replaced by whom,
it’s a structure should be changed or or anything like that or so basically.
You can become your not you no longer at this point where everyone looking out to.
At least three Center in an old is why space to step down.
I think this is really boring because I’m from different places where where work manager’s War working.

[41:03] 150 % of hard until very last day.
I even had someone who presented to the chairman of our company and he sure isn’t patients on his very last day.

[41:16] I mean it’s if you think about it.
Strong because you need to make the people around you.
I need to adjust service to this notion of you’re not part of your team anymore you’re not part of the company not part of the register and not part of the management for,
or whatever.
Because if you just disappear in one day this is bad because people still relying you I still think they’re still things that you do because of them.

[42:20] Basically people rely on you so it’s important to understand that you don’t want to get to stration where in the in the last year.

[42:31] The last day you’re still at the oxy part of salt and some problems making decisions and helping others.
Because if you won’t be there you don’t want to be you don’t want to leave them in a place where there’s no they don’t know what to do.
So basically in this time this time when I was trying to to achieve is the slowest turn down disappear provided as much help as possible as much,
even if Binion’s responsible for sale,
do that work sold their problems and challenges by themselves I will still there so one of them one of them.
He’s a great guy and I’m sure he’s killed people to do a great job this was the best plan so basically.
Same key and I had one once watch more often than we used to have.
Where he shared his dilemmas and thinks he was struggling with and different options.
You can post people to consult me another manager and I tell you what to do it was more like a friend who understands him know was a bit about the situation and try to help.
It looks like as a manager of a team or any other computer or Virginia so.

Christian Mccarrick:
[43:58] Sure.

Denis Nerush:
[43:59] So this is basically getting this is a hard step because again as a manager and as an individual who works in the company you have so much knowledge so much expertise and you just want to do stuff.
Very interesting to see what happens to your list on your calendar because really empty because you know you let you know relevant the most of the meetings anymore you don’t go to most of the stuff what you doing.
Developers will have to go.
And you usually what you want to do you want steak like miss you just asking you like it’s a present for my team and then just stuck in your last day.
So again I’m still happening a lot of times and I think again is not healthy you don’t want to take before the face know the critical features important Technologies and things that only you can do,
till the last day try to steal your friends kill yourself and let it go.
It would really help the team from the times I mean letting them do all the important things about themselves and you being there watching and helping them until until you’re gone.
Miss transmission Bully Max mover.

Christian Mccarrick:
[45:07] Absolutely I think definitely definitely all great great points there I like the fact of having a b schedule in so long I don’t even know what I.

[45:17] It one thing that that tends to come up to and it’s it’s inevitable if you’ve been a good manager.
Is your former team members who would like to follow you to your next job and.
I haven’t a lot depending on the country in the state has different laws about what you who can and what timing and other things like that as far as soliciting people but if you have people on your team they want to join you and your next team.
How would you address that.

Denis Nerush:
[45:48] Yeah of course so I think it’s a guy that white why was Tori but you Google open the message but you’re going to tell them is so important.
Because the first reaction and I had great managers left the company my first reaction was okay where it where is your original resignation letter just said my name I’m with you whatever you want.

[46:08] This is really natural because those are the people who you were the boy you trust them you want to be with them.
If you don’t imagine the company resolve them okay everything’s ruined so.
I think it’s this is why it’s so important to build the message right,
you must we must say in a way that it’s personal this is you this is why you are living it’s not everything is ruined and the company sucks and we must follow review and I’ll just buy.
This is not the case in our world it’s very legitimate.
Decide to move on when you feel that you need to to to achieving your challenge,
and you want to change something for whatever reason it doesn’t doesn’t really matter but again for you and you learn.
And usually it’s true because it can it be most of the companies with a lot of things to do and most people don’t actually run exactly supposed to actually try.

[47:15] So explaining them why should you wipe and not shoot I should not do anything you want to regret later.
It’s very boring this part of a message with a red I had felt on my team.
After few months most remembers will decide to to join you to leave their company on the joint different place I think that’s okay.
But as a person of all.
I would never start the conversation like even after I left the company I’m not actively approaching my my former College Friends of the numbers and say hey what’s up want to join me it’s not like that,
Easter people approach me asking questions and you know the conversation involves it’s a different story.
But I remain I try to remain loyal and in the good in a good relationship with my company company.

Christian Mccarrick:
[48:09] Sure that’s a very small community and you don’t want to burn Bridges either so I think that’s it.

Denis Nerush:
[48:15] Exactly exactly 100.

Christian Mccarrick:
[48:17] Dopamine and I think those are all great great points of conversation that you’ve had their moving back a little bit to you little bit more General.
You what’s heard of any any most recent things you’ve read that that you really stood out to you that’s that’s helping you as a manager,
or any books over your career or blogs or podcasts or anything out there that stands out to you is as a good resource that you would recommend other engineering meters.

Denis Nerush:
[48:44] Well of course sure and I well I love to read and I mentioned it a few times so I have few books that I think are mandatory to any kind of a manager,
happy birthday such great great Reeves that I have tapping to read read them.
Several times I think the most basic one is fine the sponsors of a team and it’s an amazing book.
Adele’s describes a model of how a successful result oriented team should look like,
and what’s faces every team and moves in order together and story like and like way so like it’s.

[49:32] Is a imaginary story of a CEO of a Johnson and Company and the management is still not functioning very well in the in the book is around how how she turns into a successful management.
Using this morning and offer actually describes how he,
how he how you should apply the snow so I think this is a great book a great trait to any kind of manager in any company.
Some of things will change the way I think of people and teams.
Actually now when I joined my new my new my new job I read it again and actually flying those things.

[50:12] Another great book is by Michael law is the Rams from the blog that I mentioned earlier used to be on the effect.
She created this book is called managing humans and basically it’s an aggregation of,
lots of his posts within reason along the lines of the years and it’s a it’s a great book it has like short chapters every chapter describes a phase,
like production and member who is depressed management forums.
Different types of things ever have a really useful resource that I actually use.
Everyday in my career and even not as a manager just great great wonders.
Angela’s book really changed the way I started to think about my team is the score will take care for itself.
It’s a great book about from Great American football coach.
Which basically states that you should have a standard performance some kind of culture but you create you don’t you don’t let anyone decreasing.
The sub started of the way you do things the way you think about the results and where you think about the how you do things and you constantly focused on making both things right because,
if you really do have things how you want in her basketball cible way with the best performance level.

[51:48] Miss court and she says will take care of himself as so too many too many really focus on the processes on the communication on the how you do things and not only on the angles,
the angle Village gather his great background background for making those things possible.
What was the last three books that I really recommend anyone to read.
They every one of them talk about different things but it yet but still they have a lot of common things about leadership and management.
It’s good also to your managers and also for people who are in the industrial for choir for a lot of years.

Christian Mccarrick:
[52:26] Yep no all three are excellent books and for the listeners I will,
those links to those on the show notes under simple leadership. I owe for this particular episode and I also would would concur,
and recommend all the books that Dennis sister in the recommended today Dennis what is the D and if you could kind of spell it out what is the best way for people to contact you or the red Spire Twitter or your your blog you know what what am I listening to reach out to you or going to breed the things that you’re posting.

Denis Nerush:
[52:57] Sure well first of all you can definitely contact me on Twitter,
I’m I’m at Dennis which is Dennis nerush any Rush Dennis Narrows.
I’m available Twitter you can also read about the things that I write on my blog I post my Boston medium.
I’m on a million you can just write again Dennis nerush and your profile.
This is where I have all of my boss all of my blogs so both of the main channels and I guess.

Christian Mccarrick:
[53:32] The perfect in it and actually reached out to you if I buy a Twitter so I know that you you definitely will.
Spawned hit reached out to there so Dennis I wanted to again this is been a great conversation I think it’s been very informative to myself and for that I’m sure the listeners out there and I do appreciate your time,
this evening for you and and thank you very much.

Denis Nerush:
[53:54] Thank you it was a pleasure really excited to be here.

Christian Mccarrick:
[53:57] Alright have a great night.

Denis Nerush:
[53:59] YouTube.

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