How to Change a Team’s Culture with Ian Miell

Ian MiellIan Miell is a software industry veteran who has written, maintained, managed and architected some of the world’s busiest systems. He works in financial services now, and also speaks, writes, teaches, and consults on various subjects, the common theme being how change can be managed within complex organisations and the raw technology that can enable that.


On today’ s show Ian discusses the steps he took to change a team’s culture that he inherited.


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Christian Mccarrick:
[0:00] Good morning and welcome to the show.

Ian Miell:
[0:03] Good morning thank you for having me.

Christian Mccarrick:
[0:06] Where are you calling in from today in.

Ian Miell:
[0:09] So I’m in based in London at the moment.

Christian Mccarrick:
[0:12] Oh excellent and it said I think it’s getting on in the evening there is it.

Ian Miell:
[0:15] It isn’t snowing as well it’s been snowing the last 3 days.
We’ve had what we’ve been calling the people I think holding the beast from the East so we have side baby Siberian weather.

Christian Mccarrick:
[0:31] That’s in San Francisco weave it hasn’t rained a lot this winter but it’s been a deluge here of rain for the last few days which is in some cases annoying but I think for the drop that we’ve had sort of over the past several years is actually it’s a good thing overall.
I want to show the start the show with how I do with everyone else just a little bit of a kind of beef.
Background about kind of how you got to where you are today and what you doing.

Ian Miell:
[0:57] Sure so I started he did a degree in in history.
And it was all headed to be a journalist.
That Savage respect that was pretty good movies that I didn’t didn’t see that.

Christian Mccarrick:
[1:20] Yeah it would have this conversation today then if you weren’t.

Ian Miell:
[1:24] If you want yeah so yeah I missed but I always had interested in some ass and.
Physics and someone.
And I said if I didn’t want to be over my colleagues it will become lawyers and PR consultants and,
things like that and we have a yen to do any of those things and I kind of.
It wasn’t I had some experience with journalism at the Times the London times and it kind of turned me off the.
The price of a relay switch to Computing did it degree in computer science it was like when you’re cool and very intensive.
This is back in 1999-2000 and then.
Achievements and ended up working for a company that did the gambling industry.
So join the network I mean once big reasons I joined was because they had more work than they can handle which was a real selling points that time and that City 8 stuff patents like two small rooms.
And you knows the pace was unrelenting it was it was a really intense place to work really really busy. Company grew over the next fourteen years while I was there to give you 700 people.

[3:02] Lots of ups and downs lots of lessons learned about about the nature of.
People as you moved from a small can a highly motivated highly rewarded organization to cut a more industrialized first one.
And then while I was.
Yeah I was I was at I bet for a long time I did lost different jobs there I did was developer obviously and then I moved in season 10 cool management and then I had lots different jobs,
and I wound up in his application support.
We did set Line application support for Century trading platform.
So Ever every second day apps down and it’s these are some of the busiest systems in the world every second it was down the customers losing money and reputation.
I’m so depressed she was was was Frankie was enormous.
And I didn’t realize how rare is situated Carrera a position that was to be under such Focus but having moved to other organization since sucks can I see now.
Just out to know I mean it to be under that kind of pressure.

Christian Mccarrick:
[4:37] And then you know from there and it’s interesting and to point out to some of the listeners you also I’ll put in the show notes I think you you are too pretty.
Blog post about how you talk about the challenges of scaling and keeping the one the larger gambling sites in the world up during that time.

Ian Miell:
[4:54] Yeah yeah so.
I guess you never stopped when I started. I didn’t really know what management was I was I was 25 years old and never managed anyone I just worked really hard and then I was put in charge if pretty quickly 7 people.
Who Act My Age experienced.
And I failed completely you know I just didn’t know what I was doing I had no real men Tori I just kind of see each other job to do on top of what I was doing before.
Everything has to be delivered faster and better and more life in song.
Yeah Richard Speck tips great I learned so much but what I wouldn’t have called it.
And when did you get back to managing kind of 10 years later you know having had kids and having a lot more kind of experience behind me.
That experience reset me well because she know I made all the mistakes that could be made and.

Christian Mccarrick:
[6:03] The poor souls.

Ian Miell:
[6:04] Yeah exactly.
So yeah it was a very up-and-down experience I was giving a lot of responsibility and then their loss of reactions within the organization in the news quite.
Dynamic could guess you could say oh okay changes could be quite violent and.
Yeah I ended up getting back into Management in the blog post I talked about taking over a team of demoralized 90 stuff.
And I kind of took that on me I was I was on my way out that company anyway,
I was Phillips reasons I was I was actually talking to another organization of time and it was a price that you want this job and I said why not you know I can I can see what needs to be done.
I could see all the problems there and I so well.
What’s the latest let’s let’s get together and I have a little fun and I think it would be interesting because.

[7:11] Humanization of the witch that time for so long for was one where the main.
And to gain respect you had to know that two main inside out and several of the manager’s found it very difficult to manage Shirley.
Try to assisting people who didn’t know anything about the main failing miserably as well.
And so it was interesting because.
I knew but I T I knew about the nature of technical challenges and how they could be able to come in and the trailer she has to make it a daily basis to get so far out that but I didn’t know much about my team to structure.
And so I could focus really on the Dynamics as a team and not worry about the detail of the technical challenges.
Which is where I’m naturally drawn I’m not treat drawings a kind of technical challenges and that it was a bunch of writing because I didn’t spend my days worrying about details I actually.
Cuz I could song.
You know how the team of braids together the processes the mall can wrap straight management but if necessary and someone needs to explain to me a particular technical program they could.
And you know I understand it well enough to make an informed decision.

Christian Mccarrick:
[8:30] Sure you entered that role I think pretty last minute right I think there was someone quit above you and then you can just kind of took over that role is it rain.

Ian Miell:
[8:43] Yeah so I’m not sure they quit but they say they agree to leave yogurt in vacation and yeah I think there was.
It was a feeling among the Senior Management that something has to change in an organization and.
It was it was I looking back it was kind of that classic divided between.
You have to have development development teams who have a lot of power because they they bring the money in so to speak you know they keeping customers happy and they bring the money in and then you’ve got this team of people who I just seen as a cost.
And so I think what was it happened was they’ve been drawn into a great defensive way of thinking and working and states sensually with drone into a bunker.
And so.
The idea of hiring someone who looked the parts to come in and administer team wasn’t really something the city manager wants to do so because they trusted me and my judgement I sync.
They said why don’t you and.

[10:00] In a lot of ways it was it was quite a challenge to Mom.
You know I need the rest of the business well.

Christian Mccarrick:
[10:20] Yeah exactly and as you kind of just the beginning of the the blog post that you wrote about changing his team’s culture and you started interesting it started with a Twitter code from charity majors.
My listeners she was actually a previous customer show I go back and listen to that one too cuz I was.
She’s an awesome guest an awesome person very opinionated but you know she will certainly tell you what you talked about blaming problems about this baby culture statements right all the coaches broke.
And you know she point socket specific and that’s what you did in this blog post right you kind of got specific about some very conquered areas where cortical culture was not working in this organization and you can I laid out some of the things you did to try to address.

Ian Miell:
[11:03] Yeah so so cultures used like like God is Not conversations in the sense that.
You know something goes wrong I’ll show you know it’s part of God’s plan always it’s God’s problem and culture is just a thing you can just you can just put everything that’s that’s bad into a pot and say I was culture problem.
But you need to as she put succinctly not in that way you need to be more specific otherwise it’s useless information like saying something is wrong.
Well yeah something is wrong what do I do about it and it didn’t come today because I’ve been guilty of this the past I said you know it’s not a bad thing it’s a cultural thing and cools very well so what do I do about it so.
Discount me thinking about my experience of having been badly managed in the past or having been an ass to to change from a from a high level.
From senior manager Unitas to change things have changed and the complete failure of anyone to be specific about what did I do what I.
But I took care of it is cheap what what did I what did I break but I tried to bring an end it was.
Those things that I talked about the blog so I think it was the first one it was.

Christian Mccarrick:
[12:28] Is it get on the floor right.

Ian Miell:
[12:30] Get on the floor.

Christian Mccarrick:
[12:30] Yeah and what do you mean by that like in the floor be seen sort of eunuch in the trenches right.

Ian Miell:
[12:37] Absolutely and it’s it’s kind of nuts do this don’t get don’t get on the floor and don’t get down into the weeds and get lost.
And they will do that I mean you could be put in charge of a team and then you know like I did side to do triage for 2 weeks.
And then just get lost in it and just completely you never lose lose lose lose perspective but.
When I’ve been when I’ve had senior managers just tell us things going to change without actually getting involved in any level of detail it’s been immensely frustrating demoralizing to me as a as a.
Is a wacker.
To just be told your deliver so fast that we high-quality that’s that’s that’s that’s always trying to do it all day everyday and if you want to help is that you’ve got to get down there.
And so you know Polly me going and doing tryouts for 2 weeks with States.
Because it was saying yeah I’m not like the previous manager I’m not just going to look at the number and you know make a statement about that number so I can tickets whatever I’m going to actually go nosc.
What are the tickets and what do they mean and you know who’s been looking at them and how they do we have to.

[14:11] When you when you pick when you go into the victim you start to see the real problems and then you can start to address those.
And yeah it is I can think of so many see me late is it coming from.

[14:28] Very very famous organizations and sold themselves as agents of change and.
That completely I can vote in his medicine seems to just carry them as before.

Christian Mccarrick:
[14:40] Yeah they might be changing and even met the change might be people leaving.

Ian Miell:
[14:44] Yeah well that’s one definitely one negative aspect I mean I remember we had one coming from a very large retail organization was very active and.

[14:59] He gave a question around soup and one of the questions was do you want change yes or no.

[15:09] And I think I think like the 63% incentive people said yes.
And then he put this up on my grass all hands meeting.
And even my heart sank when I had that cuz I just so I know this guy is not going to actually do anything useful cuz he clearly you know I was thinking about anything beyond.
And so yeah so I think they get on the floor it’s a great way of saying you know.

[15:42] A friend of mine’s years ago said to me we talked about the NHS the UK’s Health System,
so we have court we have S is many people will not reverse socialist ideas of healthcare everyone pays text and everyone gets Healthcare and it’s free at the point of views.
And you know it’s a very very easy too much and it’s a very large very bureaucratic organization.
And about 20 years ago they decided they were going to have managers in the.
And these people would just manage to stay woke they were trained as manages they were abstractly that we just manages in a friend of mine said to me.
It’s a huge mistake to think that management is something that can be separated from the Domaine.
It’s a skill management is a skill in itself but if you try and take it out of the demand if it comes completely ineffectual.
The best managers are those who have a runner-runner hospital,
you know that I stay level before you can cut a step up to that next level of abstraction.

Christian Mccarrick:
[17:06] And it’s very similar thing to the to the military organizations throughout the world as well you don’t in still the leader in the military decision must have actually kind of come through at least some of the Ring.

Ian Miell:
[17:17] Oh this this.
List frustration terribly right so I always have been doing this for how long is.
It drives me crazy because,
yeah what is what does the military a case I have someone promising talented. You never in the trenches right usually enough to know what the real Anna Network in the different divisions.
You know six months is 6 months.
So by the time they’re not general you know it is wood-paneled office pushing Texans around the pool.

[18:02] This is best case if you listen to music.

Christian Mccarrick:
[18:05] And I think that your night goes into I think a little bit of your the second point you need which is about moving people to other teams there and you just pointed out well now they they get higher up and they know the challenges almost first-hand they felt the.
The paint that goes on in each of those areas are in so you talk about moving people other teams and how does that you know how does that relate to what you did then at the previous company.

Ian Miell:
[18:28] Yeah so specifically what I did in that role was II made.
I thought there was one person in particular who is he was very kind of you know he’s very keen and interested in the job extremely.
Watching it with the right way. I guess I guess it was just kind of nervous about going outside his comfort zone and despite his kids play at Allen.
I need to change the wells and tells you but then there’s nothing wrong with that those people like that out there.
He was so much like seated to move around so I kind of can’t talk to him about you know I would like you to go to work in the applications online application support.
The two weeks you know just sit there and then and absorbs the context.
You kept saying you know I’m not a developer I can’t do these things I can’t code I will be useful you know he found every excuse you could think of to to not do it.
And when Sherry showed in the I didn’t expect to expect it no outputs I just wanted to sit there.
I need it and use my very welcome and see you know he came back 2 weeks later I spoke to him during the time but he really excited.
Really Keen to make changes within the obstruction team.

[20:02] To accommodate some of the challenges he had most of the changes he’s been I’ve been brought to him before but he just you know he hasn’t seen it from that angle before.
And as a result he sounds creative ways to solve problems that no one is Toto.
I’m just because he understood the roots of said things that needed doing you know.
So he might be asking I need more disk space I am died today that was a case,
and no you can’t have more disk space,
actually what was needed was you know maybe some sort of compression on the on the on the dates of the Messiah royalty cheap vacation or something and he could find that because he had developed.
So I think that for me.
Was really a really easy waiting for me cuz I knew that it was going to be a positive experience even if it’s just two weeks.
The best relationships improving us really important and then this because.
Company heads Heads we didn’t have a support function so we put the sulfur out there on the internet,
and people pads and so you know we couldn’t have to do by yourself.

[21:41] People who was full Sanchez and it was a disaster because customers just couldn’t get in to do anything.
Useful and so we were forced to get rid of that team and get developers to do it.
And so we ended up with this kind of the journals for signature.
Hsv-2 military saying if make ever make everyone do everyone’s job.
People with kind of development than they were going to support to 6 months then everybody knows have a promising then it would go back to to a leadership role within the development team and the idea was you had to see.
Types of business to understand that when you wrote code it didn’t just have to be clever. To be robust have to be East Johnstown to have to be documented because.
I’m bugging you about how it was a Viking.
So just moving around thing was was considered a company.
Somehow we hadn’t going to the infrastructure team because they’ve kind of been seen as a separate thing but actually do the same thing that did that says business.
You know in the end they should be there to 7 protect the business.
And that Cena that’s what I need to have me when I when I move people around and he told it’s a party it’s at the end of building and Afraid saying and supposing software so.

[23:22] This kind of Separation was with something I really was came to a while I guess I am the organization’s came to breakdown by but getting me that.

Christian Mccarrick:
[23:31] Yeah and I really help to not only on the technical side but it could help to bring down barriers and make it less of a awesome band and make it kind of a weak type of culture as you put it right.

Ian Miell:
[23:41] Yeah silly I remember one of the things about this team is really striking this was.
I work in a meeting between several people and infrastructure and several develop is about lipsticks of Chumlee, what it was now but I remember the real difficulty.
They had was communicating that challenges to the developers without.
Expressing is a flat note and so I ended up having some kind of.
It’s like a therapist kind of trying to draw houses and what the real underlying changes were behind the nose.
And an express that to the development team so that they could understand and trucks rephrase will they arrest in full in a way that your team can accommodate.
And because when you when you explain you know there’s always a reason why spice things go wrong and if you explain to people why they are where they are then you can make a lot of progress but.
That’s something that I think comes with age experience I remember being in a management training course about.
15 years ago and it was about negotiation.
And I didn’t really understand what they were saying about you know to me as an engineer it says a problem there is not sore there’s nothing else.
And the older I get the more complex organization.

[25:20] Therapeutic you know where,
besides a note Santa Fe.

[25:44] Yeah it was it was it was difficult to you know I’m still so feeding my way in this all the time but I cannot move too much much bigger organization you know over a hundred thousand people and it’s it’s like that taking to the next level.

Christian Mccarrick:
[25:59] I can imagine.

Ian Miell:
[25:59] Well yeah you so much more my job is about managing those.
Feelings those explain to people why things are certain way and and housing to be caressed and not progressed and doing it in a way that is snow.

[26:23] You know nope they just goes into hair.

Christian Mccarrick:
[26:25] Exactly and I think one of the next points you made.
Really is a tough one I think when you talk about removing you no bad influences especially when you take over a new team or you’re coming in from the outside whether you said of being promoted from within or just even you take me over a different team,
where a lot of people are reluctant some cases to.
To make some of those hard decisions about removing a bad influence and not that other ones doesn’t necessarily have to be someone that’s you know a fireable type of offense but they might be maybe.
Going against the chair not the changes you need to maybe obstructionist or they might be just upsetting the dynamic of the team.

Ian Miell:
[27:08] Yeah I had speak I mean I had to become president because their people involved so I didn’t want to be too specific.

Christian Mccarrick:
[27:12] Yeah.

Ian Miell:
[27:15] And that’s in the case of of the particular example I thought I had day with someone who.
Had a strong influence on the team.
And there’s a lot of people like that out there and most of them are usually there because they’re very effective at that job and so they think they have a certain kind of.
And when you want to see me as people but not managed brilliant people like that who it can be quite difficult the same time but.
You can usually find a way they usually want to do the right thing but like like to be managed the right way and that that’s fine and then those people can be Friday.
Very good in this particular case the power and influence but delivering very much.
And so he was very vocal and very eventual actually was a big fan of me finally enough was very delighted that I was managing the team so I’m and.
I sounds I have to sit in town explain that he wasn’t performing.
And surprised by this.
The right stuff.
And I come you know you come in that joke to stand up and say these guys terrible these guys use this you have to have to be discreet about it.

[28:52] You’ll have to give him a chance to to change him and that makes it very difficult conversations to have and I think previously.
Best conversation with milk in the ass.
And yeah I wasn’t afraid to have to go potty I think you know that was so they helped me with that precious little so.
Because I was I had one foot out the door the time I could be a little bit more.

[29:28] Aggressive is not the word but I guess I could be about doing it but but having done it and having having.
And you know the situation whether it’s the passenger side sleeve.
It’s managed by him. Managed to buy him some of these found solutions to problems the Heat win.
Obstructing so not very good reasons it turned out and this is all kind of hidden from me and it was also kind of domineering behavior that it was designed to kind of put these people down.
It wasn’t happy situation and.

[30:19] I would not hesitate to do it again because the other like I say.
It’s it’s very hard to do that kind of thing on the other hand it’s a very easy way to make a difference to make a change.

Christian Mccarrick:
[30:31] That’s right your life and the teams left can get in a greatly improved by that one hard conversation can make you next year much better.

Ian Miell:
[30:39] Absolutely absolutely and and people can be bad employees no sorts of ways.
Please say you have someone who doesn’t turn up you know that’s bad but it’s not as bad as someone who inhibits.
Two other people from watching well then you go street because three problems then and yeah yeah.
It’s it’s it’s very difficult to talk about me not being specific site but yeah yeah.
That’s why I like using Well story because.
I gave something you can read it at Wilson Wells used to on the first day of a sheets of the film he was directing he would typically.
It is said that he would typically hire someone specifically with the intention of firing them on the first date.
And it would have a effect on the team because they would know okay he’s not going to mess around.

Christian Mccarrick:
[31:57] I think it’s important as a as a manager.
If the people that you lead are looking at you to make the tough decisions so that they can do their jobs right there that’s what they’re looking,
are you for your the guy to help make those those tough decisions and not them so you can enable them and take away this obstructionist or whatever it is.
And other things I found especially taking over teams and companies that are scaling of growing is.
You might find an individual or two that serve leftover from the early days who.
They Pine about the good old days and it was for people in the garage and they are and that’s really what that’s where they thrive in and they might not be driving again in a company that has to have.
Maybe compliance issues or legal and and and all these other things and process and procedure which you need you have some level of to appropriately scale or.
Or if it’s compliance to security that she just keep the lights on and I think some of those people too or some of the stuff conversations you had cuz I’ve seen as the end of The Godfather the company or something like that and.
And people look up to them cuz I have his power but they can usually obstruct this change that the company desperately needs in order to grow and scale.

Ian Miell:
[33:09] Yeah that’s a really tough one because I mean I guess I was busy as people right.
A’ight a’ight I joined as employees 38 now we were you know how many employees true but people still working there.
So I was one of the old gods at the same time I put in procedures and systems.
Club Quest bureaucratic I had several having an argument with someone but but like 10 years before getting them to raise broken tickets.
Instead of an incident.
And they said that they kind of stay lost their temper with me because they said she’s just you know this is just nonsense why am I having to do this.
She wasted my time and I was like well that’s the first Casino.
You know you can see how these these differences account show arise within organizations.
But the thing that struck me when you would just took him out you know those days full guys one of those full people in the garage going to sing.
Those people can be really useful if.
It’s enough seen them I’ve seen those kind of Primadonna a Time Spirit useful if they can find a way to be managed in the right way.
Cheap kid that person who can kind of guide them through the the changes and Reps create a little space for them to to be useful while still.

[34:50] You know what well coming to terms with those changes.
You could you can really get a lot out some and they can know how things take at a level that can be very useful to people coming in so you know one of the things I I always.
1 things I’m really keen on doing when i’m.
Buchanan you team is who’s been there the longest and how do I get that information to what’s in the head.
To me as quickly as possible because they often know you know I’ve been in a situation where I work for a company 14 years and someone comes in and says we going to rewrite.
Distinct and in my head I’m just going okay.
That will take a minimum of three years with a lot of money.
And you kind of go well if they ask me I’ll tell them the truth but if I don’t ask me I’ll just I’ll just go back to my desk and carry on they still paid me then.

[35:53] I just want you to smile this is a break, must have been so many places.
And if I just pulled that person’s up so you can hear the longest you know more about this come from the night too.
Tell me why this phone work.
You know and you can get a lot of information out that way but that’s a difficult conversation I think a lot of seating lead is coming is wrong cuz I don’t want to have because they might have to disagree or they might.
You know I have to ignore that deal with it but you know it’s it’s.

Christian Mccarrick:
[36:30] Absolutely absolutely yeah and I think it all comes back again to these difficult conversations and and making sure you have them.

Ian Miell:
[36:39] If you think if you turn that person around if you actually listen to them and you say okay so you say that it’s going to take this long know why is that and what can be done about that can you help me change that.
Do I have to resync this aspect of the change process is people working for you.
You guys it’s a trust as move substance.

Christian Mccarrick:
[37:04] I think I become a great Ally as well.

Ian Miell:
[37:06] Yeah absolutely.

Christian Mccarrick:
[37:08] Kind of two final points of the article to you talk about as managers now or trying to affect this is sort of cultural change is take responsibility for hiring and training.
Red so tell me a little bit about the importance of those two items and how you know that led to some of those cultural shifts on the specific things at that your company.

Ian Miell:
[37:31] I’m sorry something I’ve done a lot of I appreciate you think.
Between 4 and 800 graduates over 10 to 12 year. And.
Retrospect I realize that a lot of.
The organization’s culture has resulted come through me come come come through.
Other people to hire as well so it was that kind of.
Trans transmission of that couch history that you know the difference between a candidate get to candidacy look good on paper.

[38:20] And you sit them down until it’s about 5 minutes and you definitely want to hire want you definitely don’t want to try the other.
So much of hiring I see Inn in Morgan of corporate contacts,
they have some sweats on the CVO which companies that they work perfect for that I have a degree in a certain level.
The idea of building a team without interviewing,
everyone yourself you know if you’re going to work for them in on a daily basis but you serious you should send me should take a bearing prices very seriously.
And make sure that someone you trust is meeting them and and before they come in.
Because because it’s the classic cliches of hiring you know she if you start to the great the great that quality couches and it’s going to have a pretty quickly.

Christian Mccarrick:
[39:37] Sure and then the people that are hiring than higherside the lesson still on correct.

Ian Miell:
[39:42] Yeah yeah very often yeah it’s your presence is with different organizations of hiring in know if one has have you on them.
But it’s a hard thing to get right and ends love these companies take the view that you didn’t say no rugs and say yes she not sure no I can see why.

Christian Mccarrick:
[40:07] Yep and you know training I think goes along with with hiring is if you want.
Standards to be mad if you want things to be done a certain way if you leave training to someone else who doesn’t feel that same way about them well then you’re not going to see the standard that you want mess.

Ian Miell:
[40:24] Yeah I think.
I don’t know why training is seen as something that I’m irritated that was on the job training in most jobs you know you’ll get.
Cementery but I have seen it and I’ve seen tons of training being a thing you out Souls.
It’s ready to take a box of what we paid for you to have that trading so now you can’t complain that you you can’t do it you know how I like it.

[40:56] There’s a place to let you know she’s like compliance training or something but you do have to take the books.
That’s fine but if it’s something that you care about being done right then if you’ve got to take the time to do it yourself.
And at some hiring.
Wish that was at that company sued by someone for discrimination.
It was a it was actually someone who was getting around various companies seriously saving a discrimination and making making money out of it making a living out of it.
And we sold it but it’s so expensive to fight that we ended up items go away.

Christian Mccarrick:
[41:56] Wichita movies what they hope for.

Ian Miell:
[41:58] Exactly which is what I hope for and so.
We decided we determine never to let it happen again so we spend a lot of time and effort putting together Cola Song.
Training hats that has a high fever.
Without getting sued essentially and everyone in the company.
Is when the company who will Who everyone who is ever going to interview at the best friends prices and explain two things you can say things you can’t say things you shouldn’t say.
The nature of the lore behind you.
Who sings and we did a sales meeting Tire Company in to do it we make sure we got the message out that he wanted some like it to training myself.
Conducted it myself and kind of a sign of how seriously.
And again you know what’s that mean.
If you have someone coming from outside doing that they have a much harder job of getting rid of it is he just let you roll your eyes and say oh yeah.
Someone is eating someone’s not involved in my business telling me what to do.

Christian Mccarrick:
[43:23] And I think I took from your you know where things I took from that you making sure you take responsibility for training to is a manager and a leader I think it’s important to not Overlook the fact that.
If you have leaves or if you have managers or up-and-coming managers that’s also your job to make sure you coach and train them to actually be better managers and leaders as well because it is a set of a trainable typos of skill that people can learn and improve on.

Ian Miell:
[43:48] Yeah and then I think.

[43:51] When you know when I was talking earlier about failing as a manager when I was younger the people I was working for had no experience in management Liza.

Christian Mccarrick:
[43:59] Yeah yeah pretty common.

Ian Miell:
[44:02] Yeah and so we would give us the blind leading the blind leading the blind.
And we just didn’t know what we were doing and if I had someone to talk to.
And I did not talk to my father who is experience manager.
And I tell you that she helped me a lot to see what I was doing wrong it’s really at you know you need an hour every week.
It’s Italia I put together a group of leaders and we had a kind of group therapy session every week of an hour to an hour together just took him out the challenges we are facing and we had some of my experience kind of.
Facilitating that conversation I think it would have been a really powerful really powerful process.

Christian Mccarrick:
[44:52] Call me actually you did that all right so that’s that’s great start.

Ian Miell:
[44:57] What it was really survive it was a survival in retrospect I see that it was just cuz we were all so stressed it was a way for us to you know if it didn’t happen that way.

Christian Mccarrick:
[45:10] Usher Yeah that leads me to kind of another.
Why do you have not in the article but you’re transitioning a bit too you have a a full-time job.
Addams Family write a ton on your blog excellent articles by the way and we’ll have all those on the on the show notes for listeners and also speaking at events.
And you what are the questions I got for my managers is just how to best manage their time for you as a person and how do you do it all.
Find the people who are the most seem to be the most busiest are also the most productive with doing more things than not.

Ian Miell:
[45:55] Well I can’t so full disclosure actually work a full day a week or something.

Christian Mccarrick:
[46:05] Book ranchita.

Ian Miell:
[46:07] Yeah but but still I started this can you drive a few years ago but she writes about it I think it’s so much love is how I manage my time ends.
I really did have a life-changing experience when I bought a book called at which many Regents distance will I think I’ve heard of getting things done.

[46:36] Lumos by accident.
And was ready to smoke it because I kind of had seen it so many times and 70 websites whose music video cliche.
So I picked it up and immediately started dating.
Didn’t read it and then immediately put into action the principles that was files today.
And yeah I haven’t looked back until you changed my life.
I have Sirius technical ways of achieving some of the principles but you know like I said the plug you can do is put some papers if that’s your bag.
It’s really about.
I don’t think I’m a lot of stress as I mentioned in in the oven and little things are getting or not doing right or very now I realize it was simply that I had.

[47:41] Put all my worries into one place and managed is a separate thing that’s what that’s what that book really tells you to do it says you know you need to get everything out of your head.
And usually in a single place and it says thing that you would you like to say when it’s no cooking pan that you will always carry with you or whether it’s a bunch of Post-its there in one place or white bull my face Gera.
I’m or text file or whatever make sure it’s in a place where you feel comfortable with it.
Ready to be handled and then you just break everything down into smaller chunks so it doesn’t overwhelm you.
And one of those crazies Netbook that I really liked was.

[48:30] Not only be comfortable with what you’re doing but comfortable with what you’re not doing.
How’s the weather in what you’re not saying you’re able to focus creatively on the things that you have at home.

Christian Mccarrick:
[48:43] Videos of Let It Go emotionally.

Ian Miell:
[48:48] Yeah yeah and he’s about this more at managing emotions then technical challenges because it’s medical charges usually require time and space to to to sell.
The other thing that I think I’ve learned to do every 5 years or so is.

[49:09] Don’t waste any of it and so even if let’s say I’ll spend you know two weeks trying to figure something out technically and I fail.
I can turn that into a blood test I can structure those they sold into something that someone else might want to read and note it may be that no one ever wants to read it.
Listen to me and that feeling of not wasting.
No I’m having your time wasted is really really helpful to being productive because I’m doing things.
Because my career account think of many things I genuinely think we’re complete waste of time.

[49:57] Even Stevens movie special things I failed at have had a consequence down the line that’s been useful.

Christian Mccarrick:
[50:05] Yeah no definitely well said and you just.
Talk about the kind of the one book and you know how it made such a big influence on you I know you’ve also written to.
Another blog post that list out a bunch of other resources that you have and I’ll put that in the show notes anything any another book you know top one or two other books that that you might want to recommend to the people listening.

Ian Miell:
[50:28] So I think this to subdue really spring to mind one is the checklist Manifesto.

Christian Mccarrick:
[50:37] Yes in my wife’s a doctor so that’s made such a huge impact on on the hospitals and Improvement of quality there.

Ian Miell:
[50:48] Yeah yeah I saw some interesting against this is storico expected.
Construction right there desert there’s a how many startups have there been in the history of construction I mean Millions.
And what do they all do they build things that shouldn’t pull down I mean I shouldn’t be bugging right so,
you know again there’s nothing you in this stuff and he said,
welcome to that management and he he said he was talking to someone else and they said it’s only about 200 years old,
and he said well who built the pyramids then.

Christian Mccarrick:
[51:33] Guy yeah great Point organized.

Ian Miell:
[51:38] Exactly but I think the aviation ones the most interesting one because it’s kind of very close to Software.
In the sense that you sell stuff with planes right and you have the plans quite simple even Carlo technical knowledge but to build and you say you built on random yourself.
But you know you could fly them and then you know Jason is a big crash whatever then they got more more complicated mobile bits.
Note to what was the expression these two too complex to fly.
And said there was a real kind of crisis in the industry where I needed to be seen saving software.
No one can run this no one can understand this this is Software System.
And say how do you manage that will they do it with the checklist and what it does is it frees up the person.
To sing creatively when they need to because they’ve got this muscle memory of of of things to do you know the basics to show that shows 99.9% problems.

Christian Mccarrick:
[52:55] And they can keep it out of the memory as well.

Ian Miell:
[52:58] Exactly exactly.
Repeat YouTube challenges.
The other book I’m trying trying to choose between two okay I’m going to go to the goal.
What you get is a classic but you’re published in 1984 I think free kind of software as we know it today.
But the principles of that book the same as is any software development life cycle say.
You have raw materials going in and then you have this thing coming out the other end called a product.
And will have his between point a and point B is is really that you want needs to be managed and.
That book is it’s great because it’s it’s fun to read in my wife she also works until cuz she’s a mental health class.
And she read it.
You know and she enjoyed it and I tried the Phoenix project and I found it you have to ring the bell I found it a little bit.
Actually less interesting for being a packrat software it much more interesting for a book about people trying to do something.

[54:32] And so takes out that that specific.
Domaine and 6 about makes it about people so yeah.
But it’s also really powerful elucidates of certain principles that underlie people jobs.

Christian Mccarrick:
[54:57] Sure no great and I’ll put I’ll put all those and also put a link to your other blog post on my show notes it actually list kind of a little bit of a greater detail list and.
In what is the best way for if you wanted to reach out to you to contact you your blog Twitter or anything like that.

Ian Miell:
[55:15] So yeah any old is above I’m going to Issaquah Red Lobster at in mile he’s pretty good place was on LinkedIn and there aren’t many in miles out there so.

Christian Mccarrick:
[55:25] And that’s spelled m i e l l correct.

Ian Miell:
[55:28] That’s Trent m i e double l.

Christian Mccarrick:
[55:31] Okay and your blog I’m going to let you kind of spell this out for the.

Ian Miell:
[55:35] Yeah it’s it’s not an easy one to type so it’s this fishing sucks. Come it spelled zed w.
I a s c h e n z
It’s German word meaning in between moves.

Christian Mccarrick:
[55:58] Excellent excellent and one final thing I wanted to know. You live in London I looked at your blog and it has a picture of the Manhattan skyline on it is.

Ian Miell:
[56:07] That’s just pure laziness.
How many times I love it that but that was just a difficult time to replace it.
I know very good at design I should really hire someone to design it.

Christian Mccarrick:
[56:28] Excellent excellent will I definitely appreciate your coming on the show today I think it’s been a great episode help them my listeners agree and you’ll thank you very much for the inside sent you that you’ve kind of shared on the show.

Ian Miell:
[56:43] Speak song.

Christian Mccarrick:
[56:45] Alright have a good evening thank you.

Ian Miell:
[56:47] Thank you goodnight.