Proper Expectation Setting and Mindful Communication with Lara Hogan

Lara Callender Hogan is an engineering leader, coach, and consultant at Wherewithall. She is also the author of Designing for Performance (O’Reilly, 2014), Building a Device Lab (Five Simple Steps, 2015), and Demystifying Public Speaking (A Book Apart, 2016).

Lara champions engineering management as a practice, having built and led engineering organizations as an Engineering Director at Etsy and VP of Engineering at Kickstarter.

In her world tour to advocate performance to designers and developers alike, Lara has keynoted the Velocity Conference, presented at Google I/O, and given talks at companies like The New York Times to help shift them toward a culture of performance. While at Etsy, Lara co-created the initial physical device labs, and co-authored a tutorial and bookfor companies interested in building their own lab.

To connect her passion for performance with her activism, Lara donates all of the proceeds from Designing for Performance to charities focused on supporting underrepresented people in tech.

Lara also believes it’s important to celebrate career achievements with donuts.

On today’s episode we discuss proper expectation setting, mindful communication, Lara’s new company and a surprise management challenge! Listen on to find out what it is!


Contact Info:

Title: Co-Founder

Company: Wherewithall

Twitter: @lara_hogan



Show Notes:

Read Full Transcript

Christian Mccarrick:
[0:03] Good afternoon welcome to the show.

Lara Hogan:
[0:05] Thank you so much for having me.

Christian Mccarrick:
[0:06] I am so glad to finally get you on the show we’ve kind of been talking back and forth for a few months and it actually just happened and I’m so glad we’re actually be able to meet and you don’t have this conversation.

Lara Hogan:
[0:18] Success.

Christian Mccarrick:
[0:19] It’s right solar where are you are coming from today.

Lara Hogan:
[0:23] Brooklyn New York.

Christian Mccarrick:
[0:25] Excellent in his name I guess no actually grew up in in in New York.
Yeah I grew up kind of split between Long Island and and a Manhattan so all my family is back there I love it I can try to get back a couple times a year so I think next time I come back and when I should try to bring in my.
My podcast equipment and see what I can do live there.
I think you know some of my guess is probably heard some you before them and it seemed to talk they might have read something you’ve written because you’ve written one or two.
But for those of you who may be have been living in I don’t know if he’s or totally in the zone for last couple years if you can just give me a brief kind of Bio like what got you where you are today and what you doing right now.

Lara Hogan:
[1:13] Yeah sure so I kind of can’t for the ranks at a company called Etsy I was hired there is one of the first engineering managers and I had already kind of knew that loves management. I was lucky enough to find a place to kind of grow and develop their.
And I left that last year to go join Kickstarter as their VP of engineering
and prison of my time there at all so while I was there I bet this incredible person Depot subramaniyam who is VP of product of her peers and I was like hey,
you want to start a business together and she was like yeah I mean for me it definitely the pin the best product engineering partnership I’ve ever had,
honor of having doesn’t really cool since then he’s branched out and then her own Consulting business be helped product design engineering organizations think about their health their process their humans.

Christian Mccarrick:
[2:04] That sounds awesome to me finding someone that you
just kind of just so work well West is just its Price is Right and capitalizing I think is amazing.

Lara Hogan:
[2:14] Yeah you got lucky henna.

Christian Mccarrick:
[2:16] Yeah I still know you know one of things I do,
cut of your background right was it did you kind of come up more the formal ranks or informal it was here because I asked for specific reasons because I want to make sure I break the mold of people thinking that they have to do XY or Z to become an enduring leader.

Lara Hogan:
[2:33] Yeah yeah so I have a philosophy and a visual media that was a dual major two degrees,
I’m a self-taught front end developer I definitely have a zero formal training I got really lucky you know a lot of my college professors end up being the connections that I leverage to get jobs right out of college and random tech companies in DC so,
yeah definitely the informal.

Christian Mccarrick:
[2:58] Sure now you kind of went from that route and then into being should have a lead in a manager right how did that how did that happen.

Lara Hogan:
[3:06] You know what’s funny I cuz I coach so many people who have recently become managers and I hear a story a lot about how people
I know they weren’t sure if they will really wanted to get into management or
it’s not really jarring and not anything like they expected I’m a total weirdo who just kind of knew I wanted to do it or just try it
see if I was okay or if it felt.
Can I felt okay and right from the get-go I really am sure there were hurdles you know there wasn’t like a smooth but yeah it felt really like the.

Christian Mccarrick:
[3:44] Yeah no that’s awesome and either from a personal story from yourself or for more of a generalized standpoint from some of the people you do coach what do you find is some of the biggest stumbling blocks
people I see you when I first get into that that manager role.

Lara Hogan:
[4:00] It’s so hard right the two things I hear most often with brand-new engineering managers particularly what is the the tiredness they just it’s it’s amazing how tired you are when you switch over
yeah I’m just like the cognitive load the context switching between a different things you’re trying to figure out,
how to do are you supposed to do them so definitely tired as how to manage the energy drain and a second thing I feel like you’re a lot of is how do I feel.
Like I’m successful at the end of the day or week you know what you can you develop an internal barometer of success when you’re an icy and then when you switch over to management it’s almost like
everything is a totally different discipline you can’t measure Yourself by the same thing so you have to redevelop that internal barometer of success again.

Christian Mccarrick:
[4:49] Absolutely absolutely and any tips you have for these new managers to sort of help to manage that that energy and then exhaustion that they’re saying.

Lara Hogan:
[4:58] Totally so I get I provide a bunch of tips on my blog and obviously the same thing doesn’t work for everybody so I try to offer a couple of different things that people can try and see if it even works for them
the first thing I recommend,
is color coding your calendar based in a kind of brain you need to use for each activity so maybe you’ve got a one-on-one brain we need to be hyper focus on Sutter human maybe you’ve got a couple of meetings where we thinking or thinking about the future
maybe some earrings for your email you’re such a thing about tactical strategy all of these are different brands and to do
back and forth meetings everyday without the contact person can be a dream so I recommend first color coding
I see how you’re spending your energy and second attempt to defrag it you know just kind of like move stuff around I don’t recommend putting all of your one-on-ones in the same day because
I think you’ll probably die but definitely you know measuring at the end of the day how drained you are and starting to make some tweaks based on your energy levels can I help them.

Christian Mccarrick:
[5:58] Yeah I have had some managers who attempted that and it didn’t look so good at the end of that day.

Lara Hogan:
[6:03] Yeah I don’t want to see media because you’re just doing a ton of emotional energy all day it’s really it can be very fulfilling and also.

Christian Mccarrick:
[6:13] Yeah I know you don’t need that energy juices of the last person you get to they might not be getting your full self either.

Lara Hogan:
[6:18] No I am I always so obviously it in coaching now it’s a little different but I was running a large team with lots of managers I like to put
if I had to schedule someone for the end of the day I generally like to chew someone that I could just be my full self with I didn’t have
really sugar coat things I don’t have to really like tiptoe and choose my words carefully I really it was relatively nice to those poor people had to get me at my most.

Christian Mccarrick:
[6:45] That’s right cuz your your your higher brain requires more energy and that’s the part that handles like your filter and all that little bit of a TQ that sometimes can get lowered when you’re exhausted.

Lara Hogan:
[6:54] Precisely I would always try to compensate you know like the next week make sure that they didn’t have to go last but yeah it was always refreshing be able to be honest with somebody.

Christian Mccarrick:
[7:02] Sure and turn on that van
a new potential manager right say they’re going to start a new a new job as a as a manager in the next week or so and then the next month what are some of the top things you would say just how much time left but what would you do,
encourage him to prepare for that cuz they’re usually isn’t right usually don’t know because you like it for me is like a weekend and for some people it might be a week or 3 weeks.
Do you have the luxury of coaching it for 9 months.
What are the what are some things that say Hey focus on one of these two things first or even before you land in the role.

Lara Hogan:
[7:36] Yeah you know it’s funny I also find it even if you’ve had a lot of time to prepare no one really knows what management is very very few people have the luxury of having a some of that they’ve washer having a manager that actually share with them what they did all day which means
even if you feel like you’re really prepared if you’ve sent you know what you’re signed up for
once you get in the roll is it just it’s a black box there’s no way I don’t think you can’t dip your toe in slow so what I recommend
overall number one family to recommend is get yourself a crew of people will you can lean on as different aspects of the manager for you to still have one manager hopefully they’ll be around and be supportive but.
You know when human can’t do everything that you need to know today so I really recommend I have a concept of a manager Voltron if you remember that
old cartoon you know different managers coming together to assemble into one big manager that actually.

Christian Mccarrick:
[8:38] No you’ve kind of transitioning a little bit you.
In a lot of your sort of talks and some of the writings you’ve done you.
You talk you can come back to a common theme in about a common theme tends to be around proper expectations settings and role expectations and the critical importance of them.
One minute they said she seen that it was an important one so I’d like to come to maybe spend some more this this rest of our conversation talking and Roofing ton of that seems as it relates to that and you one of the things you said talk about what you said,
setting expectations to improve predictability and stability,
how to set an expectation to help that we all want stability because we all our predictability these are all things that contribute to you know high-performing and and delivering teams.

Lara Hogan:
[9:29] Yeah so I’ll take one step back and just kind of said a little bit of context about why humans you know crave a little bit of Prince ability.
Humans have 6 corny that work social scientist and really smart people.
Yeah I found that this is mostly trigonal above Maslow’s hierarchy of needs to know shelter and safety.
So let’s keep our familiar with the scarf model scarf is actually proprietary acronym about Courtney it’s and it’s missing one important one which is why I like to refer to.
Biceps at the acronym biceps as a human 6 Courtney that work the b stands for belonging you know.

[10:13] This is why are so many television sitcoms that have a group of friends that I’ll meet in the same place at the same time every week.
Yeah absolutely yeah the eye is offense of improvement and progress towards a goal
I find the engineer’s especially Creed this we want to feel like we’re making progress but I feel like we’re being efficient about how we’re making progress but if you need that personal goals or company in strategy D E C is for choice,
we all want to have just the right amount of a timing not too much because I can feel a little bit scary but some I found it in at this highly berries people since the one,
ton of autonomy in a little bit more
guidance to go back to network the E is for equality and fairness so humans definitely have his car need when we all know that if humans
Percy something is unfair or unjust we will we will literally take to the streets about it.

[11:09] Sophie is the predictability Courtney right in this is what you were just mentioning would we all have this need for understanding what’s in front of us but our future looks like just enough you know
too much predictability and things get really boring but you little it feels like it’s just an insurmountable amount of change and then,
the S is for significance or status so how would we kind of flex it in the hierarchy in nursing that so there’s grenades biceps it’s really obvious how,
providing a sense of stability providing the cemetery that the future understanding what roles and responsibilities are like notice on your team but kind of an organization.
You know, all these things are obviously really healthy for Ability consents what a roadmap is going to be you know what’s expected of you and your role you know what makes your manager going to be like all of these things are good.
But Expedition setting also touches of kind of
all six core needs you know I know how I really do understand the hierarchy if I have expectations that about what’s in my rule
I can’t have a sense of you know how I belong to a larger group if I understand what our strategy is what we’re working towards and how we’re supposed to work together everyday it really is it’s actually incredible how much that I can
calm and soothe People’s Court needs at work.

Christian Mccarrick:
[12:29] And I think you know the smallest other things you mentioned to in that in one of your taxes as a manager you having these.
Bee stings codified really can help you as a tool right because you can point to this and say it’s not great it’s it’s kind of like right whether this is in your job responsibilities or it’s not for this is how I expect things are it’s not and I think is a manager,
that really helps.

Lara Hogan:
[12:55] Yeah what is the pitfall they see in new managers especially is it doesn’t even occur to them
that maybe adding some more clarity and being really specific would be helpful I think a lot of new managers it takes awhile to realize being having things implicit.
Or assuming someone’s going to be able into it things always work it’s really nice when you have a team of people that can and do it things and do you have had that flow together you don’t have to be super clear directly,
most teams aren’t like that and it’s really rare we can just like leave things to be implicit I also I want to make sure I I specifically say
having a manager’s solely set expectations for a team has a lot of pitfalls I firmly believe that
applications can and should be set by a team
I’m a jerk and get curious about whether teammates need and what they think there will should be and what they think the team should do and have it be a collaborative effort rather than like a top down,
my way or the highway due to the expectations and you know.
And it’s really important to get curious you know we can actually invite this to be a collaborative thing.

Christian Mccarrick:
[14:04] And obviously I’m with collaboration gets buying and gets people more actually willing to go along with it because they steal under ship of it and everything else.

Lara Hogan:
[14:11] And it becomes a shared well understood thing.

Christian Mccarrick:
[14:14] And that goes to become a Segway to another point about your there’s been a lot of I think good movement lately to for managers to should have put out these manager read me documents.
And you I think you even take it a little further and on your your website in your blog you’ve created this order this expectations worksheet.
Now what are the key elements about that and how how would have been manager so use that to help them and they were going to take.

Lara Hogan:
[14:41] I love this worksheet I use it on a bunch of different workshops that I give specifically for new managers so from my perspective there as you know some common things that show up and manager read me his expectations about
how the manager expect medication about leadership about feedback about teamwork
answer the worksheet kind of it has two two main columns what is a way to brainstorm what do you think you know what you expect of your teammates and kind of these major areas and the other column is
what’s your teammates expect of you and frankly this one is way more important you know what are you holding yourself accountable to and what kind,
Kim hold you accountable to you. I don’t really know who this in detail in the worksheet in the workshop I talked a lot about that power Dynamic how can you,
make it safe and make it easy for your team is to actually give you feedback as a manager and to make sure that you are held up to the dinner that you stood up for yourself.

Christian Mccarrick:
[15:38] And how would you recommend and I’ll and for my listeners I’ll post all this stuff,
that you have on my blog in the in the show notes and links and everything else but how would you like it in it.
How would you advise say someone goes to your website they get this worksheet it kind of made their new manager or the chicken over to team just what’s the kind of high level of how you would recommend that they apply to sit into that situation.

Lara Hogan:
[16:02] Yeah so I think that first day doing a little brainstorming exercise with that work she is really handy cuz
most people haven’t thought about what do I think about feedback what do I expect about how people might give me feedback or how I prefer to give people feedback
I got it so kind of range juices that Clapper development like have you asked your teammates how they prefer to receive it whether that’s Cadence you know how do they prefer to receive it as it happens or where they prefer to receive it only in Winter ones for examples of people really
what one of the other and then a medium would seduce you know that your team want it over asynchronous communication medium that way that they can process it first and then come to you in a little bit later or were they much prefer to receive feedback face to face,
so the problems here is the worst she is like what let me just actually codify for my own self like what is it that I think,
I can kind of write down or share and ask questions about with my team leader and then that should be launching pad right,
what should eventually happen if your documented somewhere after some conversations with your team or maybe collaboratively with your team expectations for the team so here’s how we all think about code reviews
or things that shows how we all think about the value of feedback.
And ways of the teammates most most prefer to receive in to give feedback that way you can kind of customize it you can see if it works it’s just like Steps Bureau of actually starting to think it through and then hopefully my hope is managers take that and go back to their
32 day and some clarity play work with their team on it.

Christian Mccarrick:
[17:31] And so it’s not just about communication right I think you talk about there’s lots of other things that you should probably set expectations for and
what other things you think are are equally as important I think you mentioned meetings is one what are some of the things that you know managers should think about trying to also set that Frame Works.

Lara Hogan:
[17:47] Totally awesome thanks for being at meeting I love talk about meeting I just think it’s really handy to have it you know a handy list of like
what are the typical meetings of militants that weight when you have a new hire or even like someone who wrote sitting on to your team
camper just an intern even you can make sure that you signed them all up for you know which meetings are happening but also they can have some understanding of what’s going to happen to have to show up,
nervous about what they’re going to find I’m going to go to a show and tell her demos meeting or a retrospective so I can spend three hours.
Yeah totally but also setting expectations about roles and responsibilities I think it’s really critical whether it’s an organization why the career ladder skills Matrix a performance assessment Rebecca knows all kind of Handy words for
very similar things or.
Loyal to a team how did the team think about the overlapping and the distinct responsibilities that are shared between teammates particularly peer leaders like and engineering manager at a clear data product manager
there’s so much overlap potentially between those responsibilities in like every company that I work with in my Consulting work has a different take on what those four roles are.

Christian Mccarrick:
[19:00] Exactly I’ve just kind of going through talking to talk to other people and you know in some cases one of the app after I I just.
As I mentioned was talking to lead developer conference that just happened which for all my listings at their go to search for the lead of the lead developer Google every talk that’s on YouTube from existence.

Lara Hogan:
[19:21] Do it.

Christian Mccarrick:
[19:22] They’re all awesome you’ve spoken there I just reached Facebook there you’re speaking there again anyway your politics podcast and gold.
You know I don’t say ways but just just dive into like 17 hour.

Lara Hogan:
[19:36] Hardigree.

Christian Mccarrick:
[19:38] But even when you think someone came up to me afterwards and they were kind of getting into an engineering director and they the question was.
What is my role in a micro that’s interesting in your asking me but I think it is because it’s it’s so different how it’s different companies Define what a director is it would have you been ignoring his receipts you or had a product and one of those overlap berries.

Lara Hogan:
[20:00] Yeah there’s no I would rather there’s no right or wrong way you know I mean I definitely have preferences but I can never I would never go out there and be like this is the
this is definitely the way the company should do it I think it doesn’t that doesn’t account for
the company needs the business needs the team needs the personalities you know it’s just too much humans are cracked up in there I think is the most important thing to aim for is getting a shared understanding
local to the team may be local to the organization of what those those responsibilities are and you know / parole and how does it work together.

Christian Mccarrick:
[20:33] Anything to talk about that right you’re in your last talk about in New York you talk about revitalizing a cross-functional product organization that you said a few co-lead that talk.

Lara Hogan:
[20:42] Latifah and she’s the best.

Christian Mccarrick:
[20:44] He has test it was really good and you need to talk about Define roles and this is important thing ratified across teams produce better accountability and velocity explain a little bit more about that kind of ratification,
why that is so.

Lara Hogan:
[20:59] So I want to exercise I like to,
teases an example of ratifying is imagine a Venn diagram with these three rules you know one Circle for a product manager when Circle for engineering manager and one Circle for Tech lead.
And you could imagine in a Venn diagram like that there’s going to be some overlapping stuff and some dusting stuff parole
and ratifying to me means you can take you three roles and have a meeting with those for
people and to start putting stuff in the buckets you know what’s up do we share what stuff assistant what’s up am I solely responsible for was talking to collaborate on and then documenting that and making it clear you three have a shared understanding now you ratified
what does it mean in our team and then you can take that diagram and share it and talk about it and repeat it and the,
cut it out put it up in the wall it could be a living document I can keep it in a Wiki and keep it updated as as.
Needs and responsibilities of all but the idea here is again is that you know shared understanding that way there’s so much more clarity there’s so many.
It’s just fewer opportunities for people like me who is supposed to do that,
if that happens you can just add it to the diagram you know what you’re not going to catch everything the first time but it’s a way to have a living document but still you know
beautiful shattering standing about who’s doing what who to go to for which kinds of questions who was accountable at the end of the day for forgetting this particular work done.

Christian Mccarrick:
[22:22] And one thing that you.
Talked about as well which I think is supercritical and doesn’t happen enough is none of the ratification process but you talk about the,
the jointly leading like a fever had a product in your head of engineering you know the header engineering shouldn’t just push this out,
why you talk about these emails you sent to jointly the meetings you have together and why is that important cuz I really believe it is and it’s so critical but you don’t explain to Melissa nurse here why do you think that’s important.

Lara Hogan:
[22:54] You know it’s funny I am I cannot protect the how lucky it is to find a.
Cheer like I was lucky to find a diva there was something that happened early on in our work together where I was sitting in a meeting with her and a team was talking about launching a new future and she started asking if,
Pedro time
number of fonts and I was going to affect the user experience and how they measured it and how they were they counting for this and I just like my jaw dropped to the floor I’d never,
had a product partner that was actively thinking about the things that I in my role then General especially I care deeply about performance as she hit a homerun with me and my heart on that one,
you know just incredible so I understand that not I know I know I just tears in my eyes Joy.

[23:43] Thought you might recognize not everybody has that kind of mutual love and respect with their pure leader if it’s very fortunate.
Whenever possible even if you don’t have the most smooth sailing in love with each other I think it still is important to make an effort,
the partner on Joint Communications joint meetings joint strategy messaging we developed a habit of
leading co-leading open Office hours open Q&A session together colliding road map strategy meetings are we were informing
the teams of things co-leading Retros whenever possible,
you want me sending out Communications as an example of rolled out
a version of etsy’s mindful Charter Communication communication rather be able to sign that both together is the united front
you know you want do you want everybody to have a gun a shared understanding in a same expectations and being able to show solidarity and should understanding like that is,
is just so powerful it really set the expectations that.
Not only are we going to work together but we expect our teammates to work together to it I mean I’m sure you were to companies where executive didn’t get along and that stuff trickles down to the T needs to.

Christian Mccarrick:
[25:04] And that’s such an important thing I’m going to start doing that more myself and for the reason I love this podcast to I love learning things new by talking to other other engineering leaders and that’s great but that’s a great point for my listeners.
And really I think really try to find a partnership with and it may be signing during a product or maybe it’s just too engineering teams trying to work together on something and it’s showing that cohesiveness I think super important points so,
thank you for that point and you know a retroactive thank you for all the stuff.

Lara Hogan:
[25:35] Thank you truly my pleasure I’m going to keep on cracking out worksheets everyday is just my favorite thing.

Christian Mccarrick:
[25:43] Of course when you have now all of the the cross team communication right we,
you know where our jobs right are about creating value for the companies in delivering products right in order to do that.
We we can’t do it in a vacuum we can’t do an asylum so we have to work with other teams and invariably working with other teams can cause some friction.
And explain everything to you you should have talked about,
bright is so how do you handle some of these your navigate some of these difficult potential conversations that are just going to happen in the course of working closer together.

Lara Hogan:
[26:20] Yeah it totally is a natural part of this and I’ve been thinking about this a lot recently is I’ve been learning more and more about you know all those studies that say that diverse teams produce Better Business outcomes.
So I was reading a little bit about this and and recently learned that it’s not because it’s smooth sailing once you have It reversed team,
it’s actually because of the friction that it creates with all of these different perspectives and viewpoints and experiences and things you care deeply about the more diverse the team actually
the more friction off of happens and that’s what produces the best business outcomes so.
Does is important in an old you know the the four stages of Team Dynamics norming storming.

[27:08] Forming I will look at this it’s just so busy and start going to tell her I’m starving though right is the fraction 1 and it’s really necessary to go through this with your team before I can get to the more performing. MX
the right so why you do this first thing kind of comes back to those corny that work the biceps bottle.
Cuz once you start to smell that there is infection maybe you’re feeling it or maybe you’re just noticing some displays of resistance in your teammates doubting
avoidance and fighting you know all very common to play the resistance someone’s biceps models Lynn friend
everybody’s is Friend by different things you know what’s I’m definitely mostly triggered by status significance corny and stuff but you know other people are much more threatened by its ability your belongings
so the first thing to do is start to ask open questions of your teammates to see
which one of these car needs is feeling a little bit friend for them more than one but you can’t really start solve the problem until you figure out what’s going on repeat that cuz we all react to things the same stimulus the different car needs
step one asking some open questions trying to suss out what exactly is the corny that’s you know in play.

[28:25] And the second thing to try to do is think mindfully that how you’re communicating open questions are great but not if you’re just like spewing open questions that someone or try to brute force your way into someone’s brain
asking those questions for a place of authenticity genuine curiosity is really important but it also that,
at these Charter vitel Communication that I mentioned earlier is really great and includes things like,
S&S intentions and listening to learn and understand the power dynamics in the room and you know not trolling really really helpful thing for for navigating that stuff.

Christian Mccarrick:
[29:02] Nosy or leading questions.

Lara Hogan:
[29:04] I hope all right no one just got about those big ass those are those are really the primary things and once you figure out what’s going on you can attune yourself to their corny to work then you can start to help address.

Christian Mccarrick:
[29:18] So you mention mindful communication a couple times if you use to explain again in my listeners a little bit what is that what is the definition of what is that mean.

Lara Hogan:
[29:26] Yeah so I’m it’s buddy I ripped this whole heartedly from at sea level Earth are they the culture and engagement team issue ruled out this Charter and if you search for it you’ll find it a copy of it on my blog I got thankfully permission from them to post it.
And basically just for things keeping it real.
Basically outline what do we expect from our coworkers are employees that we work with every day and what to expect for them specifically when it comes to you,
my fault and how they communicate with each other so again listening to learn I think it’s my favorite one of the four things it’s like you know when you walk into a room prepare to be surprised
I want you here at this is so hard to do but when you start to let you know be intentional and be mindful about how you’re communicating how you the energy and and that the words that you’re choosing meetings
did Anakin absolutely change based on.

Christian Mccarrick:
[30:19] Is it in the other, that you mentioned which I think guess a lot of people right is the assumed best into.

Lara Hogan:
[30:29] Yeah it’s hard.

Christian Mccarrick:
[30:30] The.
Yeah I mean to as a manager to I think it’s so important right so what are the what do you feel that’s important especially for it being for peers or managers right.
I think in our personal lives and a person relationship so I think that’s what you like or tenant that that we should all follow through.

Lara Hogan:
[30:50] I fully agree I am I keep it cuz I’m about to buy this for me so I joke that in the course of my career,
the most emotional distress that I’ve had to kind of work through the manager not not personal but my team has been around desk moves have you had this experience.

Christian Mccarrick:
[31:09] My

Lara Hogan:
[31:10] Right.

Christian Mccarrick:
[31:13] I I don’t it hit it. So I mean I’ll let you talk about it but I’m just like if you see me right now my hands are in the air like.

Lara Hogan:
[31:22] I know I know.

Christian Mccarrick:
[31:23] Waiting on because it hit me blindsided like we did an office move and I thought we had like a million task check check check.
Biggest possible distressor was the damn office placement in who’s sitting where.

Lara Hogan:
[31:38] It’s amazing it’s actually it’s incredible it’s I mean I’m sure that you’ll have whiskers right now that are like what are you talking about that’s illogical you’re just choosing the physical place and it look what is why do people have such strong emotional reaction to,
this is my favorite example of why the same stimulus right desk moves figure such
different wildly different emotions of people because it touches on actually every single one of the six core needs that humans have at work still come back to you know why is doing best intentions so important it’s because literally the same thing that could happen.
Might have completed in rations some of Mike hair completely differently than you do to a thing or might be optimizing for a completely different thing than you do just do me best intentions is also not just about you know,
you’re not trying to do you harm but don’t assume that the way you feel about this or what you are assuming it’s happening for them is actually true there’s probably
so much more going on for them just I got to bed I just moved it triggers someone’s in the belonging you know how do I relate this group
a trencher triggers my son’s an improvement of progress if you look at distraction why do I have to move my data by removing destiny.
Literally every single one of them so you can assume what’s going on for someone all you can assume that they’re coming from some place and it’s on you to get curious find out what’s going on with ever that you can see the tip of the iceberg find out what’s going on
waveney that.

Christian Mccarrick:
[33:01] Two for my listeners if you get nothing else out of the show.
Other than be careful before you just randomly throw out the desk move on like you know Friday afternoon everyone here’s a new seat assignment expect major blow back like I’m just put in.

Lara Hogan:
[33:17] Yeah yeah you’re going to grow light as the leader for your first 14 desk moves.

Christian Mccarrick:
[33:22] That’s right back into some of the kind of friction in the conversations in the meetings are there any kind of tangible
haircut with outside of the end of the month communication stuff but tangible things above and beyond that that you know you can recommend the managers to try to help to facilitate better really.
Whether it’s no ground rules or anything else like that and specifics that that you could have.

Lara Hogan:
[33:49] You know I love ground rules so I learned a lot of his stuff by the way from a coach and a trainer Paloma Medina she’s doing phenomenal work still out in Portland now but she she taught me so much about.
The Boys of Fall actually I found at Richland our website but she has to tell me about ground rules she learned them from Anarchist camps
girls are important because when we communicate as humans there’s a bunch of things that are implicit you know it’s implicit That is rude or disrespectful to interrupt someone while they’re down.

[34:26] But humans are unpredictable when you get a group of humans talking together things can get really unpredictable and so ground rules are there to make
you know what previously was implicit just a little bit more explicit and again if that’s an invitation helping people understand what we need to be getting out of this
so my favorite ground rules stay curious is absolutely one of them kind of touching again on that my communication thing
other ground rules that I found to be helpful include Vegas rule what happens in this meeting stays in this meeting meaning everybody should be comfortable
getting vulnerable and Sharon real stuff with each other and here because it’s not going to be this being and I make people agree and I you know.
Knock on wood haven’t had issues with people breaking that rule out of the meeting but I would have said no phones or laptops and other ground roll.
Customized based on what you need. Every two meetings are going to be the same so you can
I would just copy and paste the ground rules that you’ve used for one Beacon to another just really be thoughtful about what would make this a really productive really authentic the inclusive conversation.

Christian Mccarrick:
[35:32] And I’m reading such as I read so many books recently but that’s just what I do and preparing for my talk I think I read like 15 books and I.
I go in this crazy I find books a little better because it’s I can’t click a link in a book which I can when I read like blogs and I going to stand in a factory reset of my goal I learned a lot but I’m not sure how much progress I made one but,
I I just recently read a book and I can’t remember was it was either it might have been great at work and
you’re talking about 13 to Communications in. That’s it, you brought before about friction tournament some of the best performing companies and I talked about how you have meetings actually were very
you know a lot of friction and tended to produce that but another company they started.
Concept of effort every major should have point in the meeting they set a timer and like everyone they pause for 2 minutes.
And it was sort of four way to gather their thoughts to think about what is being said and to bend in a resume the conversation more I guess.
You know about stinky fast thinking slow type of thing to we actually engage your higher brain instead of that reactionary.
With you talk about it when your talks and they talk about. You know your fight-or-flight thing which is the a word which I can’t pronounce on the podcast about screwing it up.

Lara Hogan:
[36:55] Amygdala.

Christian Mccarrick:
[36:57] Yes I need lots of different things about about meetings but again I could be hold their podcast and maybe Sunday too.
You know you’ve moved from being kind of going through companies and Engineering leadership and management now you’re with with your new company and what’s the name of your new Endeavor now.

Lara Hogan:
[37:22] Is wherewithal.

Christian Mccarrick:
[37:23] What’s the elevator pitch like what kind of what are you doing there you know why should my listeners care about it and how can I potentially help.

Lara Hogan:
[37:31] Yeah so deep and I have a pretty good balance so she really focuses on product design process he’s kind of development strategies and workflows and I’m really focused on the management side
not a Sagittarius independent discipline I believe that firmly but you know how do we help the people had to be coached the humans how do we just be better,
people managers and leaders so we have the privilege of going into companies and helping them with these kinds of things whether it’s you know what I’m one coaching weather is advising Consulting I’ve actually been
in a fractional V PE roll at meet up doing all of this work and she actually also it was it made up for it we have a little bit of an overlap was great to see her around another off
but yeah I imagine you know what could make your your product design or engineering teams ship faster ship better things treat their humans well and really be thoughtful and forward-thinking.

Christian Mccarrick:
[38:29] Any common themes you see now you’re coming to Minnesota.

Lara Hogan:
[38:32] It’s all the same old stuff I mean it’s it’s comical to me how
in all of these different organizations you know different histories of the company different size of the company there are still so many common themes it’s all it all boils down to for my perspective,
Clarity that’s why I probably sitting applications comes up so often I’m at work and you know intention about your role and attention about,
how you how your Venn diagram you ain’t you know you was a human overlaps with what the business needs what are that’s,
are you learning the skills at 2 or you’re growing into new skill sets or the team is the right that’s right size for you to be leading you to all of those things whatever is in the the beautiful magical overlap between what the business needs and what you’re there to offer.

Christian Mccarrick:
[39:18] Sure and what’s the best way for listeners to reach out to do is it more is it more company-wide coaching versus in the individuals.

Lara Hogan:
[39:29] I do both yeah so I’m so I’ve been getting trained to the coach and it’s honestly the most fulfilling work I feel
I got really lucky to be able to do it I work both with companies who offer
you know what I want coaching for all of their managers or a subset of their managers and I also work with plenty of people who just come to me other own individual Accord whether they’re paying me out of their professional development much are out of town.
Everything is fine me at Lara underscore Hogan on Twitter or Lara Hogan dead.

Christian Mccarrick:
[39:59] Okay and the website of of wherewithal.

Lara Hogan:
[40:04] Yeah we’re Dash with Dash because he couldn’t get the full word of so that everybody could have used it an actual company name to be three words it’s not it’s just the domain.

Christian Mccarrick:
[40:16] Yes is annoying to maintain a lot of gas on the show any fantastic thing you’ve watched listen to or read recently that you might recommend to to my listeners.

Lara Hogan:
[40:31] Oh gosh I mean you’ve already said it I messaged you yet another plug of for going back and watching all of those lead Dead videos from London from New York this year there was an Austin when is here just put it on autoplay and just let it rip.

Christian Mccarrick:
[40:44] Nice nice any sort of going back in time anymore Seminole books or anything that you would recommend to a new manager right kind of turning out today and I agree with you the videos are awesome too but any help.

Lara Hogan:
[40:55] Yeah yeah I hope that every single one of your podcast guests recommends the managers path by Camille Fournier.

Christian Mccarrick:
[41:03] They all have.
Finally I’m having Camila on my podcast in a couple of weeks so you know I feel like I’ve been you know not personal personally to but throughout my my gas is observed in this like.
One person one stop for like getting everyone to buy a book on Amazon.

Lara Hogan:
[41:22] Well I will tell you actually we just announced yesterday deep and I are also reading a.
I’m hoping to really put something out there that is you know you need to order Nationwide thinking and you know from Divas product it all in perspective and also my perspective I’m hopeful that we can produce something that is really helpful to people in India
what station.

Christian Mccarrick:
[41:45] The awesome when it when you when you find a Polish it let me know and I’ll put it out of my podcast to get it.

Lara Hogan:
[41:50] Appreciate.

Christian Mccarrick:
[41:51] Yes any anyting last words you going to want to get out that maybe we didn’t talk about in the show or little nuggets of wisdom for for Mike for my listeners.

Lara Hogan:
[42:02] Don’t think so but thank you so much I appreciate it.

Christian Mccarrick:
[42:05] Well I definitely am so glad we had the opportunity to sync up and actually get on this this this this chat had a great time and I really appreciate you coming on the show.

Lara Hogan:
[42:16] Same around thanks so much.

Christian Mccarrick:
[42:17] Alright thank you. Have a great day.