Christian Mccarrick:
[0:05] Good afternoon Leonard, welcome to the show.

Leonard Chung:
[0:07] Thanks thanks for having me here.

Christian Mccarrick:
[0:09] No absolutely it’s my pleasure to have gas on board and I kind of enjoyed our little bit of our pre conversation before the call to so I’m really kind of looking forward to diving into some of these these topics doing Ark also thanks for doing.

[0:23] Leonard so where are you are you calling me from today.

Leonard Chung:
[0:27] Calling it normally ends in San Francisco but today I’m calling in from a Honolulu.

Christian Mccarrick:
[0:33] Oh wow well that’s that’s excellent I think you’re my first guest from from the Hawaiian Islands so that the first so awesome I hope you’re enjoying your time there.

Leonard Chung:
[0:44] Yeah I am it’s it’s a bit of a Funny Story.
I propose to my girlfriend a little earlier this morning and had this idea to just you know as busy as startups are carve out a little bit at a time there’s a flight that is departing in 2 hours so.
Floor over here to her favorite place and proposed to her a few hours back so it all worked out.

Christian Mccarrick:
[1:12] Relations I hope I hope it was a yes I’m assuming.

Leonard Chung:
[1:15] It was a yes it was yes.

Christian Mccarrick:
[1:17] Great and I’m sure she’s totally pleased that you you’re proposing one minute and the next minute you’re right in a podcast right dedication.

Leonard Chung:
[1:23] A startup founder.

Christian Mccarrick:
[1:31] The excellent well congratulations to the both of you and I hope you know I hope everything goes great for you all so you get the background that you can just kind of diving a little bit kind of,
I like to get these people little color about you know how my guest kind of got to be where they are today.

Leonard Chung:
[1:50] Yeah absolutely it really goes back to.
You know I’ve been a Serial entrepreneur now for a long time but I’d say I really cut my start more because I started as an only child where my parents moved around a lot when I was younger and.
Technology was a way for me to connect.
The other people and particularly people who weren’t necessarily you living nearby and so.
I started out as one of the earliest folks back when people used you know 1200.
Pod modems and Oceanport systems existed before the internet and I was a sysadmin when I was think I started when I was 11 or 12 you one of my own.
And I really started from there so I got into technology pretty deeply because I guess I had a lot of free time on my hands and.
Not a lot of kids in the neighborhood so to speak and it really inspired by just.
How empowering it was even as a young child to see that somebody could create something to get acknowledgement.
But because I was behind a screen there wasn’t necessarily all of the the social judgment so they got me pretty pretty inspired and later on in my career when I was.
My in college I went to UC Berkeley my freshman year of college a guy named Jim Gray reached out to me.

[3:24] Turned out she had actually invented the relational database he won the Nobel Prize of computer science called the train award for foundational work that he traded for it.
And he had thought that I was a PhD postdoctoral student.
You too I think some of the you know the fact that this was something that you know when you know somebody just virtually and anyway vited me to interview with him.
Ended up getting a job with him and it was through a little while from school but was just that really cemented for me that concept of just man this one person was able to make such an impact on the world.
Do what they did the relational database underlies.
Most of the modern you know what we call now big data or other types of data out there we wouldn’t have credit cards we wouldn’t have you know most ticketing system like paying payroll.
All of these systems that came about because there was this way for computers to store large amounts of data.
Process it quickly and allow mere mortals like you and I to be able to access inquiry into it right now. Change the way that we live knows are so inspiring so.
That really got me going and drove me into just being an entrepreneur now for.
For basically the vast majority of my my life and career and I’ve had the fortune of working on many versionone products which means taking something from just a twinkle in the eye all the way through to the first product.

[5:05] And I’ve had the Good Fortune to.
I’ve been able to also look a little over the horizon and make bets on friends that are coming next and my last the last friend I really.
Made the bed on was what ended up being cloud computing which as we all know.
I really became quite quite so ubiquitous and on mobile and so the last startup most recent when I did prior to my current start-up hello Chava.
Was called syncplicity was in the file sync and share space so like a Dropbox but for very the largest of Enterprises ended up using by itself.
Major League Baseball American Airlines Siemens those types of companies and in 2012 stayed on with the acquiring company for a few years and then.
Went and started hello Java after a little bit of time for myself to the travel around the world and.
Learn about more cultures and experiences outside of outside of Silicon Valley.

Christian Mccarrick:
[6:24] And reset yourself as well.

Leonard Chung:
[6:26] Yeah Henry charge of it that’s right.

Christian Mccarrick:
[6:30] If I’m not mistaken I think to that from all of that kind of a career path you started syncplicity and.
Not really was then your first turn of official management job I can say right right when you were the CEO of that company right and it kind of Grew From there that right.

Leonard Chung:
[6:48] I would say it was the first one without the safety net previously been just prior to that I was at Microsoft and they have a model there where.
Or at least remind management you have to type demonstrate management skills before you get promoted to become a manager.
So effectively you’re doing it under almost an apprenticeship model and then you coming do-it-yourself Simplicity was the first one where.
There was no safety not like that and you know no-one to say hey.
If you if you say that are you sure they’re going to take that well or is that really what you think.
They’re saying or is that just what you want to hear those types of questions where I think good managers ask themselves and good mentors to managers ask the manager.

Christian Mccarrick:
[7:42] So we’ll up Microsoft you have to see kind of saw what sort of not even structures and practices and policies so you aren’t going in blind you might not have to say we have that title.
But you certainly kind of absorb glass Moses a lot of the practices and things are going on around you.

Leonard Chung:
[8:00] Yeah absolutely.

Christian Mccarrick:
[8:02] That being said, you jump into this and it’s something I ask him I guess two is if you look back now what were some of the you know Mistakes One or or kind of a common theme of mistakes that you made during this journey.

[8:18] The manager leader.

Leonard Chung:
[8:19] Yeah I think there’s always a.
So many to list in so many you think of you know I’d say one of the biggest I’ll call it a mistake and I’ll call it a huge learning for me was.
The first time I was really having to manage strong personalities and I think that’s in.
When you go in and you do version 1 products when you win especially I started syncplicity.

[8:55] I didn’t really understand how the the folks who are really drawn into a startup are a slightly different Persona when it comes to managing.
Then the people who are at a big company and I found myself under equipped to deal with two extremely talented people.
Who were fantastic LEE capable both really driven incentivize to to succeed.
And yet they still clashed like crazy.
And it was a huge challenge for me to try to get them to work together and I in the end really wasn’t successful there and I learned a lot from that experience but.
I think I’d really say is.
The biggest learning in the biggest mistake I made was a lot of the things that I was doing to try to bring them together.
Don’t succeed because I didn’t create a formalized incentive if you will to really force them to work together as a team.

[10:01] What that means is you have to focus I typically come and say you know hey.
I was doing this and then you know Bob you know did that and here’s how wrong I am or here’s what I need from them and they’re basically arguing their case.
You know the problem with that is.
That’s fantastic but it’s coming from a place when somebody’s arguing a case to you that they’re not actually taking into consideration that’s early the other parties viewpoint.
And my you know being a earlier in my management career.
I would do what I thought was important which was to listen Okay okay you know tell me more right when you collect some data then let me try to get the other person’s perspective.
But what ended up happening was it just created a lot of I’d say Band-Aids over the situation rather than the two of them truly creating a relationship with each other.
Which really was the most fundamental problem.
And so when I look at mistakes that I’ve made often it’s about.
Becoming an enabling presents but in the bad sense of that word right not actually saying hey look it doesn’t matter to me who did.
You know what to whom you are all going to fail as you know as a group or you’re going to succeed in school.

[11:33] So I can help in that process but it’s really on you to sort yourself out.
And I didn’t have the maturity at the time to really understand that by trying to help I was actually in aibling you know what the worst outcome at the end of the day.

Christian Mccarrick:
[11:53] Sure absolutely I think that’s a good point that a lot of people trying to get into it’s it’s when you’re just starting out.

[12:02] It’s it’s you have a good intention and in some kind of cat is almost like animals helicopter parenting to you you want to try to force the outcome but but that might and you said put a bandaid on it and I fix this situation but it’s certainly not going to help.
The teams to work together and create that culture because ultimately as you scale and grow you know they have to work together without your presence and around them micromanaging.

Leonard Chung:
[12:25] Absolutely and you know it’s one of those things that.

[12:30] I need to plug up a book that has been really influential for me and I wish I’d read earlier.
I think it’s one of the best management books I’ve ever read is this book called How to talk so kids will listen.
And listen so kids will.

Christian Mccarrick:
[12:46] Okay.

Leonard Chung:
[12:49] It’s funny because it’s it’s a parenting book obviously but there’s so much that holds true.
When it comes to managing people that’s very similar to it you know if you’re a parent trying to get your two children to think of themselves as a team rather than always just escalating to mommy or daddy.
A lot of the techniques a lot of the responses a lot of the motivations are all truly the same and so.
It’s one of those books that I’m a little later in life now and my fiance Lily was the one who recommended the book me but boy did I wish that I could go back in time and no GMC.
The version of myself 10 years ago this book to read.

Christian Mccarrick:
[13:38] Absolutely nuts and that’s interesting you say that because I think you don’t have kids and and I often think that there are.
Times when you’re dealing with my kids as help me as a manager I had help me with some of the situation and vice versa.
Two I think that there’s you know definitely that.
That aspect especially when you have like me kids that have siblings and trying to keep them operating and have respect for each other and everything else when when they could have completely different ideas about.
Fairness and then everything else which is you like employees in a company.

Leonard Chung:
[14:13] Yeah absolutely one of my hopes is you know as we now have.
I think more and more of a breakdown of traditional gender roles where people.
Think of you know working life and balance and thinking about that as two separate things that.
Are at conflict with one another and needing to be balanced at all times I think they’re also things like this you know if you mentioned being a parent gives to.
Become a better manager and vice-versa I hope that people.
Look at this not as just a Work Management type of issue and hey there’s an interesting parenting book but.
Not the end of the day it’s really about how do you become a great person where you can listen to people better give them safe spaces to people to speak their true opinion Cena put names to real issues.
These are things that I think just make us good people Beyond even being great manager sends you know I hope that as people are starting to truly.
Become more empowered and you know people who are before just only working out all day.
Spending more time with their kids and people who have you know a lot of experience.
In raising kids being more involved with work I hope that that actually makes you know a lot of the other managers much better over time.

Christian Mccarrick:
[15:46] Sure knows you because you’re busy. He mentioned there’s a concept you had if you know you’ve you’ve been run doing this for a number of years now.
What kind of wisdom would you have if you could let you know boy let down into one sort of thing that.
A new manager starting out today or relatively new one.
What would you would give him some advice I get you to City look back of your younger self or or someone that might be on your team now or where you’ve mentioned in the past what’s the kind of a one thing that you would say hey this is this is something that.
How old is principal work for me something like that.

Leonard Chung:
[16:22] Yeah I’ll give you a two-fer on this is really.

[16:31] Putting a name to the real issue is so cute and so important I think we at the end of the day management is about people.

[16:41] It’s not about just project management and I think when folks get that confused as in Hey where’s my stuff why don’t you have it you know what’s going on.
The really type of project management rather than truly.
Getting in deep with a person and you know putting names to a real issue hey I don’t think we’re really communicating on the same page.
Hey I feel like I’m not being heard what do we do right putting a name to something.
Really just Empower that unlocks conversations that.
Are too easy to beat around the bush of all the symptoms rather than that you caused and so that’s one thing that.
But definitely advised it to start out with his new try to put a name on.
What you’re feeling has probably the other person’s feeling something similar they might have a different name and that’s okay but at least start from that level of discussion rather than the symptoms.
In the second thing I say is really.

[17:52] Be okay to experiment one of my best managers and mentors.
Told me a technique that he does right cuz I asked him why are you such a great manager like what are you doing that’s.
That is enabling you to it to be so good and he goes oh it’s easy.
Each day when I interact with somebody I actually Co and I’ll try a different way of communicating and I’ll do it across the board for a week.
And his point was you know some people need a very directive way of communicating some people find it better to be very communal and Tina let’s look at the world of possibilities.
Others need to just get their feelings and check and then go and they can that unblocks them from diving into a task.
All of these are our preferences that you as a manager need to try to learn and understand and knowing that hate there’s no one perfect management technique.
There’s no one perfect way to do things.
Despite what you know we met reading books it at the end of the day is a relationship and so his point was experiment within the bounds of the relationship.

[19:13] Buy something hey don’t tell them that you’re doing it for say just do it.
And then if it works great if it doesn’t then adjusting try something else until you find something that fits with folks and start out with your gut but don’t be afraid to try to optimize and find something better.

[19:32] That was that was really important for me to hear like yeah you know you don’t have to try to cookie cut this thing.

Christian Mccarrick:
[19:39] No great I know you grew syncplicity to I think was about over 200 people or so and.

[19:49] Everything to do that successfully.
You have to learn to effectively scale metal your leadership but the leadership skills if your team so first of that.
Is you tell me how you approach self-improvement right row is growing that your job is special to start up 6 months later is not the same job you had 6 months ago right here in this continual learning growing scaling face what did you do.
What systems do you use in order to to learn and grow and and level up and it’s specially as it relates to you and your management and Leadership skills.

Leonard Chung:
[20:24] Yeah I the biggest thing that changes over time as an organization gets bigger is especially the top leadership you’re getting more and more disconnected from facts.
You think you have the FAX but truly you’re not at the the front line right I’m not.
Writing the code in fact I’m not even watching people writing the code I’m not talking to you know anywhere near the number of customers that I would to get a full picture.
Like I would if I was a smaller organization with smaller number people and so.
I think the biggest thing was this to truly skill an organization is you have to have high bandwidth.
Conversations on very accurate data and the biggest thing that means is listening well and giving space for people to feel safe.
You actually give their thoughts and opinions you should always be doing that but over time it becomes more and more critical because at the end of the day.
You know the types of things that.

[21:39] That a big company has to deal with is a lot of information when it goes through the process of playing telephone crossed many people that data is getting skewed getting biased and by the time it finally gets to.
Senior leadership.
You have to if you haven’t set up the foundation where people are giving it to you as with his little bias ends with his little.
Secondary intentions as possible.
It can lead to a really distorted environment in which you’re making decisions around so truly emphasizing that look it’s about safe spaces.
About listening not about directing.

Christian Mccarrick:
[22:26] And on that note I think.

[22:30] When you scaling you’re leaving a company no longer becomes just about you and as you mention you can kind of further away and further away.
And you’re for me personally I know is I grout my organizations and teamed the people that I put in underneath me.
Are going to be critical to not only my success but for the organization success so.
What is the things you look for when hiring and trying to fill out to have your management team your direct at that executive level in the organization what’s the most important things to look for when you’re doing that hiring.

Leonard Chung:
[23:04] Trust it it’s folks to.
You know I would trust that they’ve got the right motivations.
If there’s anything there I put that above even capability smart people can learn things but somebody who you have trust issues with.
You you just can’t United ads in this multi factual complexity everything that goes on top and so.
At the end of the day is this someone who if it was bad news or if they disagreed with me would they.
Is this the type of person who would say hey you got some broccoli in your teeth you know even if you’re even if you’re the boss and you know and that could be very embarrassing to you to hear.
It’s still a fact and it still needs to be said.

Christian Mccarrick:
[24:04] And how do you how do you say us out that trust in a you know before they work for you standpoint like how do you how do you gather that this person is going to be able to be candid with you and and you know do the right thing.

Leonard Chung:
[24:18] Much of that I don’t think you can find out from a formal interview formal interviews are places where people have their guards up.
And it’s a great way to show capability but not not trust not authenticity and so.
I think the easiest answer is truly it’s time you can try to do some reference checks.
But you know it’s many many beers many late night conversations and I’ll give you an example with hello Chava.
Zach Choi is my co-founder we’ve been friends previously but we’ve never actually worked together.
And I knew he was very capable he was a partner at McKinsey he had led Revenue gross at a company called Green. That’s took it suited to their IPO.
I knew he was very capable what I didn’t know is.
Are we able to have those types of disagreements where we come to a better conclusion together so we started out simple right we said okay.
I’m going to tell you basically my kind of secret to it which was his head let’s a let’s just plan a party with common friends.
And and bring folks together.

[25:39] I love the party planning exercise and the reason is it forces the two of us to think about an abstract problem which is what sort of event we want this to be who would we invite.
But also you can learn so much more about who a person truly is from the friends that they keep more so from then what they tell you.

[26:05] I might think I’m free sample of very organized person but if I have a bunch of friends who all think otherwise that says something.
Similarly if I have a lot of friends who you know are really great people and they themselves are fantastic.
I do believe that you know good people stay in cohorts with each other and so.
Yeah it is a great way to basically.
Doing exercise that’s fairly quick and easy and inexpensive to to where you can get to a much better sense of someone’s I sent itself through triangulating through their friends and then.
Exercise together that seems very low stakes and easy to see how well you can work together.

Christian Mccarrick:
[26:53] Yeah good points shift gears a little bit to to an article I read the viewers that you put on LinkedIn.
And one of the cool things about that you actually you actually talk about you you kind of drove an Acura on Laguna Seca the Raceway.
That’s pretty cool.

Leonard Chung:
[27:12] So much fun so much fun.

Christian Mccarrick:
[27:15] So we we all like to do that but you know interesting one of the things the points you make an article which I really resonated with.

[27:25] Was the fact that you need to talk about sometimes you have to slow down to go fast and.

[27:32] You know today especially the engineers I think if they don’t feel like they’re writing code or checking things in that they’re not doing like they’re nothing productive.
But don’t you go into a little bit about what do you what did you mean by that what was your your kind of thought process behind you know that comment that you got to slow down in order to speed up.

Leonard Chung:
[27:51] Yeah Chief foundational concept with slowing down to go faster is really focusing on what’s important.
And at the end of the day that means activity in and of itself.
Is it really important right very few people when they’re on their deathbed go man I wished I just did more stuff.

[28:18] But no answer. I don’t mean being productive I just mean you know being more busy right like that’s a strange thing to say and I think sometimes though in the day-to-day we can we forget that.
Right we go hey we have a culture and you know myself included right we have a culture where somebody sends a text to us and we go oh shoot I better respond.
Fairly quickly because I feel an internal pressure that they’re expecting it on the other end.
And there’s a lot of times you know you mentioned programmers how many code check-ins did you do.

[28:56] Does that really matter you know it is it lines of code that’s truly the the measure and in the past we used to.
Your company is used to measure a programmer productivity by what they called K lock the thousands of lines of code that a programmer wrote over a given time.
And I think as you know the industry mature people realized that’s really dumb right because what you’re truly trying to get to is not.
How many lines of code did you write it’s did the code that you wrote do its job well was it maintainable did it not have many errors or bugs in it right these are the types of things that are truly important not.
You know the easy to measure thing which is thousands of lines of code and so.
What I’m talking about slowing down to move faster it’s about saying hey forget all the noise for a second.
And think about truly with purpose what you’re trying to do.
And then do it and be present for that and I think that that’s something that you know it was in the context of race car driving but.
In racing having a smooth line is more important and smooth input so that you carry your momentum forward is more important than.
Just trying to drive as fast as you can in a frenetic Pace that I’ve seen something slower and I think that’s true as well with working in careers you know just if you can make steady strong progress toward the fundamental goal.

[30:31] You’re going to do better you’re going to get there faster and I will be with less drama and less grief than frenetically thrashing around where you’re just going to get exhausted and maybe the lose track of where you’re trying to go in the first place.

Christian Mccarrick:
[30:45] Yep not a hundred percent agree with that and it kind of goes along that other adage you know what does it measure twice cut once and is ultimately.
Your coding and what you’re doing and specifically from a technology standpoint.

[30:58] You know that’s great and all but do you do your point are you as what you’re doing creating value for for you and your conversation instead of just this churns you talk about. It’s a conversation I have a lot of times with my team about.
You know that’s why I really resonated with me about hate sometimes you just you really have to pause a little bit because it might end up.
You know with less work over all rest which is it might you might get there quicker it might be less time to code you might be less throw away less frustration so anyway I really appreciated that article special. That one point that I really resonated with me.
Everything that article was you talk about the importance of of being humble and you’re free you.

[31:42] Especially the leader in India’s organizations how why do you feel being humble is so important you know to Be an Effective leader of an organization.

Leonard Chung:
[31:52] It all goes back to a theme I talked about a little earlier which is.
Giving safe spaces right is so cute to growing and learning and.
That’s not only meaning giving safe spaces to those who work or you underneath you around you that’s absolutely key obviously somebody’s knots.

[32:20] Not able to give you feedback.
You’re not going to really learn but that means you give me a safe space you have to be humble you can’t you know it it’s about listening not to create.
And so I think humility is a key part of that safe space externally but it also is really key internally.
I think one of the things that sometimes gets lost in the Hollywood glamour ization of of what it means to be a leader but I think.
Will probably most most parents can relate to this there is self-doubt three questions am I doing the right thing and there’s a bit of loneliness that sits in there.

[33:07] There’s this Persona of all but you know someone who’s the leader has to be a strong leader they have to show no weakness be always definitive know exactly what they’re doing.

[33:17] I think that Ashley doesn’t create safe spaces internally for the manager.

[33:24] Doesn’t try to save space for me as a person when I think about how I want to grow because it means I have to hold myself to a standard where I know everything.
It’s a humidity for me is also key for that internal type of discussion that internal growth which is actually I’m not perfect there’s a lot of stuff I don’t know if you ask me for more mistakes that I’ve made in managing I could.
That’s okay that’s what it means to be human and that’s what you know we’re dealing with human relationships and these are wonderfully messy and complicated things and I think that humility of saying you know what.
I also have lots of room to grow here’s where I think that’s just something that.
When I see people don’t who don’t have humility or at least project that they don’t have humility.
It always gives me pause cuz I think at least the way I think of the world.
Are you really growing anymore or have you stopped in the moment you stopped or not giving yourself permission to grow that makes it really hard for you to be a great manager because the people around you have not stopped they are all changing so what does that mean.

Christian Mccarrick:
[34:42] Yeah yeah no good good point and I want to Segway to into something else that I get asked a lot from you in different people I do mentoring.
And.
It’s it I’m going to start asking that all of my gas going forward and it’s really about how do you scale yourself personally in the biggest thing about that is is heard of this this time management everyone says I don’t have enough time I don’t have time.
Too much stuff to do how do I find the time to do everything I need to do and.
You’re kind of going back to the very beginning of the the episode when you talk about well as it as a start of founder like yourself you you found the time to go get engaged this morning so there’s a time to be had but do you have any tips about.
How you handle kind of time management prioritization anything that kind of helps you get your you know get your stuff done.

Leonard Chung:
[35:32] Yeah I I find for myself the what’s he is.
Knowing how I need what’s her environment I need in order to prioritize and think about things and I think that very is for everybody but for me that means actually sitting down.
Spending about I spend about 10 minutes using an app called headspace trying to meditate a little clear my mind.
And then I sit down I think about okay.
What am I trying to achieve what am I trying to achieve today what am I trying to achieve longer-term and really just being present in that problem.
And it doesn’t take that long you know good 10 20 minutes.

[36:24] Establishing that pattern because I find that if I don’t spend that time.
The pressure around measure in a frenetic.
When I start to get frenetic then I at the end of the day that I have to make any progress right did I do the right things and then I’m my mind starts eating seeking things which are easy to measure.
Not necessarily indicators of progress but just things that are easy to measure which been is reinforcing a bad habit and so.
Why am I hearing in Honolulu it’s because you know my fiance basically said a few things to me over you know many time we’ve been together but.
She has wonderful memories of Hawaii and that’s like her her happy place.
She want to be proposed to in the early morning and then spend the day together.
And she wants she loves the ocean she loves water right and so.
That was one of those things where I’m just keeping track of that to see what an opportunity could arise where I could.
In essence a line when the stars align and you can just take advantage of that quickly and make something happen purses.
I’ll tell you of course I was still incredibly nervous prior to the proposal so the how do you find time for these things it wasn’t.

[38:00] Oh my gosh I need to I got these 50 things going on with company and these you know 50 things going on over here how do I balance each one of these little things it was about saying okay he’s really just giving me three criteria let me figure out then.
A time where are you still need to make a trip.
We can just do that and get that done not not no way that’s just saying check the box but you know it is thoughtful and I think that’s part of the key thing is I talk about it when it comes to race car driving II.
It was funny I had one of the instructors I know you know you’re very natural at this.
My first time and I realized there was a huge benefit for those listeners who who.
Like we haven’t read this article it was that I actually had the slowest car on the race track but Ashley did much better than the worst person was because.
I actually had a slow car where the only way for me to.
Keep up with the faster cars that had a lot more power was basically holding as much momentum to as possible that men.
Pink smooth knowing what I was trying to do not just in the next turn but the next turn after that in the next turn after that to try to figure out the best.
The best in a way to turn the wheel and when to push the brake when the person accelerator versus just going right now oh my God I hit the brakes and turn it off.

[39:38] And I think that if you kind of perhaps even stress that analogy little bit.

[39:44] It’s easy with our smartphones today it’s easy with a flood of emails it’s easy when you don’t take a moment to.
Get into the zone and go but wait I see that that turn that wall is coming.

[39:59] What else is also happening in those are all the types of things that I think make the concept of work-life balance a little easier to manage.

Christian Mccarrick:
[40:10] Sure sure and I wanted to give you kind of admitted here Leonard tell me a little bit about.
About your your company right now can I give me the end of the elevator pitch in and it’ll let my listeners know you know what what you’re doing with the company the products about and and you know you know why did she die.

Leonard Chung:
[40:33] Super simple in terms of what the product is and I’m really excited about where I think it it it’s going.
So innocent hello Chava is a second phone line a work phone line that you can add to your personal phone.
And by giving out that work number instead of your personal phone number when clients or other people need to text you or to call you.
You not only get work-life separation but we’re now able for the first time to use things like a i to use the type of Technology of cloud the basically superpower.
The workflows that you’re doing with them there.
So what do I mean by workflows somebody’s asking for some time to schedule that we’ve all had that headache of going back and forth trying to like the Sarah normally you know like the coffees I don’t remember.
What are you know what times have I given to other folks what’s going on in my life.
And said you hit just a single button and where because hello child has been sitting in the conversation with you.
It’s able to effectively augments.
Things are trying to do so when you get book it’s able to go okay I’ll take into account your current calendar I’ll take into account everything I’ve learned about Sarah and her preference is over time.
I’ll take into account everybody else you’re trying to schedule with the find awful times to give to her so you save a bunch of effort of bouncing between different apps bunch of mental overhead.

[42:08] And you can imagine how this extends now Beyond booking and scheduling but.
Call people Naval Mass messaging with effectively PCC for text messages and other workflows that’s.
That in our busy lives make it so that something that may take many minutes can I’ll be done in just a few seconds and.
What that really is designed for is this concept of saying Hey how do we bring back a little bit of this.
Work-life balance and for our customer base that’s really got engaged.
We found a lot of them are what we call these independent agents are people who in their work lives managed of book of clients that are there.
Will be real estate agent may be a personal trainer on any in any regard their managing personal relationships with these various clients and where.
Sexually and I believe them to be more productive while also letting them now separate work and personal lives much more easily.

Christian Mccarrick:
[43:16] No perfect and I’ll definitely put the link to that on the show notes as well something else.

[43:24] Ask all my guests are on the show as I find it is a very valuable resource is you mentioned one before.
About you actually mention two bucks already and I’ll put those in the show notes but anything else any anything that you would recommend maybe something you’ve read recently a blog post a book or podcast or anything that.
That you would recommend to my listeners that you found worthwhile to going to help them on this in a management leadership.

Leonard Chung:
[43:50] Yeah I recommend two things that I think I’m on a.
Bit of a listening check if you will want to just you know how to how do I become a better listener and I really realized this when.
My fiance says this to me all the time like such an engineer.
Find some ways because you know I grew up in a place only child I really only talk to myself or people who her you know now the internet and.
I was basically trained in environment where capability was the most important thing.
And yes being a leader isn’t about how capable I am was one of the specific tasks that are being put in front of me that are hard you know I’m kind of hard technology problems right.
Leadership more about the soft skills it’s about how do you get the best from other people.
And so listening as is such an important skill there and so I’ve been on a kick on that there’s one book that I’d recommend in addition to the the other so far which is called just listen.

[45:05] And it’s written by guy who used to be an FBI negotiator but he talks so a bit about just how do you.
If you take the step back and say I’m not trying to solve or fix something right now but I just want to understand.
He talks about a lot of the techniques in the outcomes from that and I think again going back to confusing activity with progress.
You’re the first part of relating to people is relating to people right not trying to just get them to solve for something or trying to solve for something together so I really like that book.
Then you know I just recommend because leadership management trying to effectively.
Now have a role in helping other people.
Be their best and cheap their goals it can be a pretty lonely task cuz it’s not easy to get into other people’s heads understand this motivation.
And so I would recommend you know whether you get into meditation through an app there’s a variety of good ones in the app store or just.
Take some time to decompress however that works best for you right some people maybe a drink of scotch at the end of the day or go out for a run.
Wake up time in your schedule and make it purposeful so that.

[46:38] So that you have an opportunity to grow as well you have an opportunity to spend some time reflecting.
Our brains are are funny that way right it sometimes the answer is obvious in front of us but until we have that space it doesn’t pop up.

Christian Mccarrick:
[46:55] If that’s what if idle space for your kind of mind wanders and can create those does association’s nose connections that if you’re constantly getting input it doesn’t have the bandwidth to do that yeah I know I agree.

[47:09] And what are the best ways if I don’t want to reach out to you.
Can you let her know if you could let me know what’s the best way to reach out to you online and coming no spell it out if it’s if it’s going to be not easy to self with people who might not be,
reading the show notes but I’ll certainly put them on there but you know if Lester is going to want to reach out to you as a question or go check out in your stuff.

Leonard Chung:
[47:29] Would love it if you connected with me on social media I believe will have those in the show notes.
And I also if you want to reach out more personal you can use my email address which is Leonard Leonard.
Hello Chava h e l l o c h a v a calm and because we are a.
You know we help superpower texting communicating you can also text me if you want in my phone number was hella Chava is 815-6622.
4282 just let me know you on your contact me from listening to this this podcast.

Christian Mccarrick:
[48:21] Excellent well Leonard I appreciate your time on the show I want to appreciate to your you know fiance now for kind of letting you going to do this right after your engagement again congratulations on that.
A good luck with Botello childhood and everything else you got going on there so again thank you very much.

Leonard Chung:
[48:43] Thank you so much as well I had a wonderful time.

Christian Mccarrick:
[48:47] Alright enjoy the rest of your stay in Hawaii bye.