Travis Kimmel:
[0:00] Thanks Christian happy to be here.

Christian Mccarrick:
[0:05] Excellent and so where are you calling in from today Travis.

Travis Kimmel:
[0:08] I’m coming in from Colorado headquarters or down in Durango Colorado.

Christian Mccarrick:
[0:14] Absolutely excellent I I’ve been there so I’ve done some kind of skiing up up in the air in the winter and speaking of that idea any snow yet this year.

Travis Kimmel:
[0:22] Not yet a little bit in the High Country but so far so far it’s been.

Christian Mccarrick:
[0:30] Good well you know that’ll change For Better or Worse depending on if you like the snow or not but that’s definitely coming soon so one of the things Travis just if you could give me a quick background for the listeners, where you got to how do you get to where you are today.

Travis Kimmel:
[0:44] Sure I initially started out.
Serve as a self-taught coder after graduating with that yesterday.
I might find myself in a few all that was like Pac I like to talk.
Logic side of programming so did that little while by myself.
We’re at someone who I was.
You’re not as Qatar World you’re right but the team got big enough to the person who has decent Communications manager.
That happened to me up working out pretty well.
Yeah I found myself running a team of Engineers small team.
And during that experience that I noticed that you lose this point where you can’t lose the intuitive garage Banshee offer.
What’s going on with everyone and have a desire to have more Arcata out engineering.
Did you my job at her and to be able to communicate with stakeholders you rather than relying.

[2:22] Yeah those are engineering you’re not always the most politically Savvy people.
So having a thing with that and I was the early 2015.

Christian Mccarrick:
[2:42] And when you did that I actually went through the the Y combinator Route correct.

Travis Kimmel:
[2:47] That’s right so we started early 15 and we spent that your building out and then later in early 2016,
Jet-Dry.

Christian Mccarrick:
[3:11] Yeah probably good almost you no way for you to even test some of your that the things that you are building because it has a lot of new kind of company is coming up a lot of first-time engineering managers in and did you use that as a tool to serve dog food a little bit of your product.

Travis Kimmel:
[3:26] Definitely got some crazy back some of the other y combinator companies we still we still hit them out for feedback,
source of of sounding board. Since then we’ve moved out a little bit.

Christian Mccarrick:
[3:48] Sure and for you I mean interesting path are you kind of started off as this self-taught engineer wanted injury management.
Then became the co-founder and CEO of a start-up what were some of the most unexpected challenges you you experience going from hey I’m just an injury manager to now I’m a CEO you helping to run a company.

Travis Kimmel:
[4:08] I mean in the early days pink see it was kind of a Kind of a Funny thing right if you’re in a company three or four people it’s sorta like being the king of your yard.

Christian Mccarrick:
[4:18] Yep.

Travis Kimmel:
[4:19] Additional Raw on you handle stuff like fundraising.
200 Casio stuff for management.
A really hard time starting and goings business routing and more more recruiting and.
The bigger company gets the more the focus of of how you make an impact as founder is people.
That I just scale that Communications how Stacy pre-open you know Finding good people.

Christian Mccarrick:
[5:07] Absolutely and kind of doing these transitions you’ve had both become a manager then CEO at any mistakes you’ve made on the management side that need care to kind of share Their audience.

Travis Kimmel:
[5:19] Of course I think there are maybe they recover well.

Christian Mccarrick:
[5:28] Excellent I like to.

Travis Kimmel:
[5:29] It’s better to be able to get into the preventative mode.
Funny framing I don’t think there are any mistakes that we were at the other things that you hindsight we made out of dawn Maybe.
Trying it out as how you get hindsight so we don’t spend a lot of time looking back.

Christian Mccarrick:
[6:09] Yeah and so tell me a little bit about get Prime right so as an engineering unit manager it what exactly is get Prime and what’s the benefit to me is in an area manager.

Travis Kimmel:
[6:19] So it’s our big promises ate a 20% increase in engineering productivity and able to help most teams get there.
The way that that comes into play is there are these unique challenges the software engineering teams faced the first of which is that all the work is invisible.
You know I treat engineering teams like Wizards.
Most winter organization don’t understand how expensive it is to interrupt an engineer for just ask.
Best thing to soak up right now.
Schedule a meeting at say 10 a.m. basically a race is that a tire morning for the entire year with regard to you.
Doing large photo projects.
Deposit at 7 because organizations don’t recognize waste that the organization creates.
On engineering reports engineering so we bubble bath stuff up and allow that to be talked about.
Visualize and ultimately allow those Hazard interactions to be price like other interactions are.
So if she had a sales comes into a.
Board meeting and says that we got to have this problem with your spots to make a problem that can be.

[8:04] Engineering has never really happy and so CTO will show up for meeting.
How to tell the story of you know.
Tried some stuff shipped so very narrative-driven metrics in the conversation.
Lever support there’s no way to communicate with the rest of your about what specific things engineering.

Christian Mccarrick:
[8:40] Yeah absolutely I’m a huge fan myself of using should have data to make you know better decisions and the point that you made before about when you know if the head of sales or you’re in a board meeting or you’re the exact meeting.
And you know they have interesting things from Salesforce sir you name it there’s there’s lots of built-in reports and and funnel and pipe lining and all these things and and they get that.
The thing that I found is as you grow in your scale in organization to a special larger companies in a special companies wear.
Maybe the CEO isn’t your husband have a tech background right they come from sales or maybe they come from a finance background.
And I just can’t speak that technology language like you said it’s a cyst black box and if you kind of go in there.
In a waving your hands around saying we’re so busy blah blah blah it it just like they zone out and they don’t they don’t comprehend it.
Being able to go into those those meetings and put things into their language right in their language is a lot of times very visual.
You mentioned dashboards being very Visual and everything around you no money and cost I think suddenly resonates with him.

Travis Kimmel:
[9:49] Got it the language of these.
The language of the executive is that is powerful if you can if you can create a compelling PowerPoint with numbers back up by fat.
Yeah but on a small Team all organizations run at 7 level on truss and a small team team.
Just it that’s what the organization needs to try.
Name something fairly disempowering for an executive not walk into a meeting with a bunch of hard numbers to make a case for increase budget you know adjusting timeline really anything.

Christian Mccarrick:
[10:32] Yep so that that leads to another good thing right so how would you how do you see someone using a tool like it prime or anything to be able to go into.
Meeting like this to justify say they need more resources.
What are the things that you can help a manager to go into that hey this is X we need y helping manager walkthrough making a case better.

Travis Kimmel:
[10:58] Yeah what are the very common things that gets talked about in in Sovereign change technical data.
And the default way to talk about it it’s just this frightening Spektor that so wrong.

Christian Mccarrick:
[11:13] GDP of America.

Travis Kimmel:
[11:14] Yeah exactly right.

Christian Mccarrick:
[11:18] Java City.

Travis Kimmel:
[11:19] This frightening thing you can use it as a foil in conversations non-technical people.
Don’t trust a Concepts and Technical people know how very real it is so you have to Foundation will disconnect so if you can bring that by pricing.
Last quarter we spent 32.8% of our engineering average paying down technical death it was unavoidable when the infirmities features.
If you would like us to ship faster we can also take say a month.
Put some concerted effort into paying down II will Dad and then we should be able to move faster because.
And if you can surpass that in a way that I did people can look at it the next quarter you looking for the same numbers.
You can see that that one month was 1% focused on taking that and then the following months the ongoing services.
It feels trust that yet engineering yo is not asking for.
Just not ship stuff they’re asking ship stuff that is not visible to non-technical people but it’s still a valuable and provides value of the work as a whole over the long term.

Christian Mccarrick:
[12:49] Great and I like what you you mentioned that too it’s not just going in say for that first meeting.
But it’s really taking the data that you’ve you should have that you presented at the first meeting going back in there was a month or quarter later and presenting again that this is the goals and this is what I hit and the benefit.

Travis Kimmel:
[13:09] You got it the value of being is that the feedback loop and all all analytics products should be looking to be a very important part of work plus you know.
If you think about D. Even if it’s been visualizing nice way and super pretty and it’s interesting.
Interest and curiosity are awesome but they’re not value-creating.
It’s really a worm harness to take that data and turn it into something that the team can take action on and then use as an ongoing feedback loop for whenever your feedback so frequently.
The minimum quarterly.

Christian Mccarrick:
[13:51] And you mentioned something earlier as well which it it also helps with the concept of that trust right really about building a trust.

Travis Kimmel:
[13:57] Exactly.

Christian Mccarrick:
[13:58] And I found that the sooner you do this.
It’s almost more important the beginning because if you do this you say what you going to do you continually you know prove that you’ve done what you said you going to do then actually moving forward to asks become easier.

Travis Kimmel:
[14:12] Absolutely you know the more the more you do what you say you’re going to do so.
Find themselves in a boardroom Under Fire when something is gone walkie.
And because there’s no way you know the default state of engineering.
Binary not enough granularity conversational what’s happening with engineering to build credibility.

Christian Mccarrick:
[14:51] Exactly and if you take that sort of thing and back to Salesforce say I’m using that as an example.
Do you have things like well along the way of getting this customer you know here’s the touch points we had we made three phone calls I did six you know email follow-up side x y and z.
But like you said and Engineering it shipped or didn’t and if you could have the way we’re okay.
We didn’t ship however we did X Y and Z we got interrupted six times you put in 3 new features that had to get done right I’m in your present but was always a package and then it it’s just a lot more compelling and people understand.

Travis Kimmel:
[15:27] That’s exactly right we didn’t ship but the spec change 5 times we waited for 3 weeks on legal review something like that more powerful form.
Having to explain away the perception that engineering is failed which is very rarely the case.

Christian Mccarrick:
[15:48] And getting all this data.
Is there anything that in some of your customers that they started using this data for something you didn’t foresee right some interesting you said the data are some not all the way of using the data to help people the productivity of team.

Travis Kimmel:
[16:03] Yeah it’s been going to watch that one of the things that we did not we do not expect was some cells are using it to.
You prove management Universal.
Just had a lot of running an engineering team that are specific to.
Seeing HDs you use this as a server personal feedback loop.
What are the things to Buford over and over as people start using the stool animal talked to them earlier around a renewal.
And tell us that they got a promotion.
Directly because of gift wrap so the way that I usually work since the day you had it got some elevated in 2 a.m.
I’m at your old one way or the other and never had any training on the strip.
So we get one of the things that we provide is a lot of package deal with that the software is a lot of opinionated.
Here’s one way that you can use the tool to make things better here here’s what it looks like to make a release SEC hear the kinds of things you should put in a release and here’s why it’s important show sequel.

[17:41] Every time you release something so we’re providing a lot of people be more powerful in their and they’re.

Christian Mccarrick:
[17:55] Excellent and if I’m a manager and how to see there’s a lot of other things that go into one on ones and maybe coaching other things but if I wanted to help a.
A team member or even one of my managers improve their teams or their own productivity how would you use metrics like this in 1 and 1/2 have that conversation.

Travis Kimmel:
[18:16] Yeah I think the main thing there is two main guys pick one thing.
The first time people run into mattress sometimes you get into surgery kpi Frenzy.
That’s sort of like getting gym membership in it going using every machine until you can’t move it.
Yeah it used to be a pain the next day it’s not going to create a systematic change so small.
Make sure that the first thing you do is give.
People win on new engineer for example we will bring them in and day one.
It’s just it’s about putting the win on the board and in Eunice.
These measures can be a powerful force for change. Going to be like.
Introduced in a way that’s healthy and net device is heavily towards everyone success.

Christian Mccarrick:
[19:36] As I how would you go about selling it to the team as well because you know there’s always the man another tool or have to spend more time on the dreaded word process right and so what are the what are the things that you use to help,
selfie stick to the engineers how does this help them.

Travis Kimmel:
[19:52] Well ideally we can services for a process Destroyer one of the things that happens in it.
A world that is absent of data is a lot of shoulder tapping to know what people are up to and whether or not they succeed.
It’s the only way to do that is to interrupt a lot of interruptions yet a layer of process that can be.
So one of the things that we offer by injecting for management.
She doesn’t rely on on scheduling you know high frequency meetings.
That’s pretty valuable.
He said it is just making sure that we are as as company do a great job of introducing.
How the metrics are designed to be used to put more emphasis on the Superbowl last year,
where we package this will sample emails they’re like he is a great way is an email template to send to the team.
Send email template,
pre-processing a lot of that stuff.
It’s been a pretty good day.

Christian Mccarrick:
[21:28] That sucks like that you’re you’re you’re you’re not only selling a service but you’re actually trying to set them up for success.
Right and I think a lot of tools and other things and leave you hanging with that and then they don’t get the the value when it’s time for Renewal your later I was like well I never really got around to using it to its fullest but if you really spoon-feeding them I think that goes a long way.

Travis Kimmel:
[21:47] It doesn’t mean to everyone that we we talked to her they’re very busy managers are very busy people so we really don’t we don’t want to be added overhead Argo certain to remove.

Christian Mccarrick:
[22:00] Correct an inner thing it’s another thing to not just if you’re selling to into companies like you are but it’s a tactic that I try to use to and I’m dealing with sort of my boss or the CEO.
Where.
I try to not only say spoon feed but I give them everything they need packaged up to what they need to sell it to the Border then do something else so that they’re more likely to support me if I’m giving the middle of the night you know any additional.

Travis Kimmel:
[22:23] Absolutely absolutely.

Christian Mccarrick:
[22:25] No I was he one of the jobs there’s lots of jobs in injury managers right I think someone said at one point it’s it’s all the stuff everyone else doesn’t want it.
But but the.
What are the things out of season by driving productivity building as effective team as you can what are some of the things that you have a philosophy are that’s important for you to help Drive software engineers and improve their productivity.

Travis Kimmel:
[22:50] Well.
Locus of improvement for engineering is not always inside Angie that’s one of the things that seem over and over.
Example that for me.
Build a mini button or something.
System engineer pick set up and they totaled.
I took a run out of delivered and messages no that’s not right.
So I think one of the things over and over and over is to do as much of that provide a layer of data helps make the case for soaking all the communication over head up front features that are.
Specifically tailored app.
Sometimes we share today is the engineering team. Complain about scope creep because it’s legitimately worth complaining but there’s no.
The bad feelings are only spelled in engineering,
if you can engineering department Express that the rest of the company say it was that bad feeling $87,000.

[24:25] The waist of Africa we had to throw out that’s a pretty powerful thing.
So any time there is any time is it disconnected into your anytime experiencing frustration.
Our goal is to find a data set to express that frustration in a way that the rest of the organization can understand.
Share that frustration frankly understand and then change.

Christian Mccarrick:
[25:00] Yeah absolutely I thought and I’m done a similar thing with certain because sometimes also you and yours good dude is negative or no we’re not going to do that or that stupid enough to try to change that.
Messaging around a little bit and say sure you know will do it.
But providing exactly what you said and then I try to take that information as it if I can make it Quantified enough right like you said this change is going to cost $87,000 or.
And if I just even scope creeper future creepy we’re doing something in the middle.
And you obviously didn’t know the priority shuttle this is this this is so we need to get this right.
And that’s the thing I find a lot worse but if I can take that I said sure I’ll do that.
Then I come back and presented to the CEO or you know the product whatever be like okay perfect so we’ll do that but it’s one of two things has to have one.
It’s going to cost like you said it’s $87,000 that’s going to cost this to the overall or it’s going to delay this.
Or XY and Z so I kind of take that ass I’ll do it so just give me the choice you want one two or three or three as I can hire someone else and I would say that’s not an immediate.
Productivity but overall if you’re seeing this happen a lot you know you can you can certainly.
Add to your resources but absolutely the and then sudden have to tell him I find they look at it once it’s been so old.
I didn’t know I mean even though you’ve been yelling them for year but until you show a dollar sign and now you should try to put it on the like I said I’m not.

[26:32] How to PowerPoint or an email with see no 42 with lots of you know dollar sign suddenly they get it.

Travis Kimmel:
[26:39] Absolutely and you know I mean I think this is the compassion goes both ways right powerful people often times don’t understand their throw away.
If you wake up with the brilliant idea,
it may what you don’t leave your brain idea it may be worth turning the entire ship sometimes that happens.
But it’s very important to have a pricing discussion for that ever really concrete discussion to make sure that it’s not a feature.
Is this really something that’s driving it a business need is really worth.
Is it really quick left turn to the tune of $100,000 light and as long as the answer is yes absolutely is it’s not the kind of thing that.
India over later race.

Christian Mccarrick:
[27:33] That’s right and then your team also the converse of that right is if if that’s been communicated and back down to your team then as you said they can ride.
You there is such as to change for change that gets its big customer or we’re going to hit this conference or this new release or some some strategic deal and then you’re like oh yeah okay that’s got behind it.
You know it. There it is again I just wasted three makes a life again what’s online.

Travis Kimmel:
[27:59] Right right that’s socialization. Any time for socializing anything.

Christian Mccarrick:
[28:09] No absolutely so what else what other things would you recommend to other engineering matters out there to try to help improve their teams productivity.

Travis Kimmel:
[28:19] You know that all the best managers that I’ve ever had it in my career work very.
The approach the more charge the situation was the more the approach.
Just passed your passion the more heated it up.
I think independent.
Regina company.
Humana Byron returnable at a day that just woke up what are we really talking about.
Trying to get all the eagle has a rim that’s a bit more more country any conversation.
Especially when things get a little heat in this disagreement the better off everyone in Topeka.

Christian Mccarrick:
[29:21] And you also mentioned before to the concept of scheduling meetings and timing and flow how does how do you recommend people to handle their and their team’s time as it relates to time management.

Travis Kimmel:
[29:33] Yeah I mean internally first off we just tried it kill every meeting we can you know.
How to start meetings with what’s the purpose of this meeting question.
You know overtime at sensor signal that meeting should have a purpose which is singing Beer Works Indiana.
Call beforehand constantly asking is this email rather than and then.
I would love for someone to build one piece.
What is a video conference tools which poisoned everyone’s calendar and gives an approximate.
Since there’s 40 people in this meeting that we just spent a box wagon.
Is this should we keep going because I think that that’s sort of the level of crime is missing from meeting so people.
So you try to take a very pragmatic approach to beating your handle things.
2010 and when we do you have them so that’s all your meetings on the day.
A regular occurrence.
At the very beginning or the end of the day so that you’re not splicing that into the middle of it.

Christian Mccarrick:
[31:08] Yep know your point about,
quantifying the cost of meetings to we actually do something in our office is called event board but it’s it’s a lot more for the physical meetings in a serious for a lot of and you mentioned kind of a the video meeting thing and it doesn’t give you that the truth.
Kicker in the upper hand corner like you bought an iPhone right.
I think that would be you know that would be kind of interesting thing to have there at you know In the Heat of the Moment there to really show it around you in a little bit if you do that every single meeting you what you wasted.
In a lot of productivity for onion cost for opportunity cost for the.

Travis Kimmel:
[31:47] Yeah and it’s fine did you schedule it but purely social meeting you know I think the real the real problematic means that the ones that are.
There’s Circle pay everything social thing here are we what would we want to get out of this where the 30 people in it is probably the maximum number of people that are productive meeting.

Christian Mccarrick:
[32:10] And I think that’s that’s so that’s a good thing I found two is the as you grow a company and is it scales people become.
Right there they’re not involved in every decision anymore and that makes them feel a little uneasy so now you start having these meeting bloat and now you have everyone in meetings and because I tell used to be.
But.
That’s obviously not good for productivity right so really getting that concept of trust in whether it’s a lead or whatnot of Representatives like that’s another challenge for for new managers that are dealing with scaling teams and scaling.

Travis Kimmel:
[32:43] It’s a huge shop especially as company scale and if you’re trying to keep people out of meetings and keep you informed I can be your hero challenge.
Every company scales quickly runs afoul of some sort of that we biased towards I think.
How to do you like to be my better decisions.
Communication.
And the trade-offs that work best routine.

Christian Mccarrick:
[33:31] That’s right it was reading through something else you had another article that you were part of the quote and assisted of the power phrases often times making a decisive decision that ends up being completely wrong it’s much better overall than being indecisive in the mall.
Tell me tell me your thoughts on the.

Travis Kimmel:
[33:48] Well there’s no decision fatigue is a real thing and especially when you get one of these work. It’s really crazy sweaters.
You got a ton of decisions every day and.
It’s often times better to just call the ball one way or the other and provide concrete Direction in frankly air cover for everyone to.
Message your decision and what we’re going to do this doesn’t work out so I’m me that is a very powerful thing even when it doesn’t work out I mean you have to follow through and then have it actually be.
I think you have in any company that scaly Swift decision-making.
Serve the default obviously there are operational thing.
Past tense of preventing.
Issues that are really matter that much.

Christian Mccarrick:
[35:01] Yeah I know and I actually agree with that as well and I was reading an interesting study of successful CEOs show the one of the common traits they had.
Was just making decisions faster right and that one trade actually was a unique and common attribute to all of sudden the most common successful City.

Travis Kimmel:
[35:19] Yeah I can see it I mean I guess that means there’s hope for us.

Christian Mccarrick:
[35:24] Next time you go operation I think in today’s weather to Tech decision obviously there’s some things that are bigger than others but at the end of the day.
Choosing one framework or another or one library or another you know it 6 months from now it’s fine.

Travis Kimmel:
[35:43] What we’re going to do later what library pick we’re all going to hate it.

Christian Mccarrick:
[35:48] That’s right there something newer and graders going to come out in 6 months anyway right and someone’s going to want to switch that’s another whole productivity discuss.

Travis Kimmel:
[35:56] Let me just think about the last I know five six decision of the agonized over how many of those,
what’s it called fire that there at least a year or two ago how many of those ended up being as big as they see you know the more you focus on,
. commentary you still want to keep you in the loop and all that matches.
Yeah I mean like work decisions will expand the size of the container so.

Christian Mccarrick:
[36:33] That’s right and for you and I’ll get your gift from a very distributed come,
me too so if you’re working distributed you working especially across multiple time zone being able to not only make decisions quick but Empower people to make those decisions probably becomes very important in an environment.

Travis Kimmel:
[36:51] You got it. Hi ownership by as culture so if you can have somebody in charge of something.
And we do our best.
I provide feedback but push a decision towards the Locust have.
I guess one of the straight off.
Decision-making that happens in writing and then other people can self serve.
If you have an engineering product that you said that is dead now.
If you go too long without seeing other people in person mammals tend to get weird when I forget the other mammals smell so sweet.
Be good about that and also layer in some Face Time.

Christian Mccarrick:
[37:59] And you know that’s a good point I was talking to Kate from automatic recently and she mention the same thing that there are a hundred percent distributed.
But the benefit of that becomes almost a lot of documentation by-product right just by default because you have to.

Travis Kimmel:
[38:15] Yeah and I think I think even non-striated teams would be well served by a by following up.
Decisions with some form of documentation.

Christian Mccarrick:
[38:32] Yeah absolutely what other recommendations you have for remote teams in distributed teams to really,
help with their productivity especially in areas where if it’s a time zone difference you know it’s one thing if you in the same time zone and you’re just a slack should have come in a way which one different time zones you how do you help.
Productivity when things could easily wind up being stuck right.

Travis Kimmel:
[38:56] Yes are you going to be graceful about steaks I think it’s find up to me Teen am I need to be a high standard form.
Daily productivity and decrease.
Or say don’t do the wrong thing but if you don’t have a date waiting that’s fine.
For us it works better focus on on.
Not being too negative in any way about certain States right now.
Or expect wasn’t clear enough soup Yelp default the default is called a ball rather than wait for someone else to call the ball.
Pretty good advice for teens you’re working across time zones in a meaningful way where maybe you’ll have an hour but you really have to give.
Give a lot of authority to.
So the whole team at work this is great there’s a book that talks about types of skill sets that Admiral had to have before there was radio.
Each of those animals sexually had to be the same skillset as president.
Because they were making decisions together security now I mean they can go to work,
so you have to have a lot of of trust in them and they have to be have any presidential and not qualified.

[40:29] I think the same thing when you’re really need.
Autonomous people that Rick Costco working hours.

Christian Mccarrick:
[40:43] In previous article to you mentioned ureter of a book called you mentioned a book called discover your strengths and it’s it suggests that you’re better off developing what you’re good at versus trying to bring up with your bad at and I think a lot of people.
Especially managers.
Bring up where they try to your fix or improve the lot of the Performing part of the teams but you know how it what are your thoughts are on how a manager should really build out their team as it relates to the faucet.

Travis Kimmel:
[41:11] It’s a great book you know that the study suggested success so they,
Define what they’re good at and then they.
Well you see how people do that so.
Find what they are uniquely and put them into a roll so that they rather than.
Requesting to take me to other side.
We have rolled that idea into our recruiting and hiring process so we look for that does this person.
And that’s more important for us.
Skill sad experience really looking for someone who will excel in that role because they are.
What their talents are.

Christian Mccarrick:
[42:25] As you build out your team portfolio you know if you noticed have two strikes in this area you probably looking for a manager to hire the person that’s maybe you don’t have that strength in instead of trying to make the two people are strong strong another area.

[42:41] What what do you have any other tips for engineering managers to help it there and being productive any kind of last last thoughts or comments that they might have mentioned on the show.

Travis Kimmel:
[42:51] No I mean I would say it’s the final thought if you if you are so what you got kind of elevated.
Go all the way you know don’t be.
Running around on the internet song it’s much harder to find a 1.2 s manager that I didn’t attend.
Sergei interesting say that I think it’s probably true.

Christian Mccarrick:
[43:28] That is yeah I’ve never heard that but it is a gree I would.

Travis Kimmel:
[43:32] And that’s just need to make sure that their actions are Force multipliers for traveling on their team so make sure you want it to make sure it go all the way in.

Christian Mccarrick:
[43:48] Go in.
Go big what did we mention a couple books or least one of them in the show what other resources do you have that you would recommend for any managers out there books blog,
videos anything for referring to getting a new manager to try.

Travis Kimmel:
[44:04] I would only recommend one.
Looks great another one from 12 the elements of great managing and they have dick broken down a bunch of syrup Universal independent note.
Weather in software some other in Street.
To help people be happy at work and it’s things like make sure people have the tools they need to do their job.
It seemed obvious but we rarely do a good job up so that’s a great book.
You know is a lot of discussion of those but in the end it’s kind of 12 simple plants start there very few managers.

Christian Mccarrick:
[44:52] Great and for listeners out I’ll try to find that book and then put a link to it on the show notes when the show is published so you can go look at it there what’s the best way to you to contact you Travis on the on the web.

Travis Kimmel:
[45:05] Yes Twitter is great on Twitter and.
You can sign up for that you were on our website coupon.com.

Christian Mccarrick:
[45:23] And what’s your Twitter.

Travis Kimmel:
[45:24] Travis Kimmel yes yes.

Christian Mccarrick:
[45:33] Okay.
Excellent well Travis again thank you very much for taking the time to be on the show I think you know what you’re doing out there is providing a data-driven approach to helping Jerry manager is this is really spot-on and and it’s a tool that.
And I’ve certainly going to going to look into for from iTunes as well.

Travis Kimmel:
[45:51] Thanks for having me.

Christian Mccarrick:
[45:55] Alright take care.