The Benefits of Hiring Code Bootcamp Grads with Ana Ulin

Ana Ulin
Ana is an engineering leader, about to start a new role as Senior Engineering Manager at Patreon. She started her career at Google, where she learned much about distributed systems and engineering leadership, and has pursued both hands-on and management roles in several startups since leaving Google. She is passionate about improving the ways in which we build products together, and about making the tech industry an inclusive environment where everyone can thrive.
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Show Notes: 


The Manager’s Path: A Guide for Tech Leaders Navigating Growth and Change


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Christian Mccarrick:
[0:05] Good afternoon and welcome to the show.

Ana Ulin:
[0:07] Good afternoon thanks for having me here.

Christian Mccarrick:
[0:09] Absolutely it’s always my pleasure to have guests on the show and actually in the studio is I’d like to call this sort of makeshift office with a great view behind me.

Ana Ulin:
[0:17] It’s an awesome View.

Christian Mccarrick:
[0:18] So one of the things I would like to start at the shows with a little bit of the background so it’s how you got to be kind of where you are today I think a lot of people have come from different backgrounds and I try to explain to people that there isn’t Just One path to go for me to be,
alright so tell me Lil Bit about your background.

Ana Ulin:
[0:34] Sure so I always knew.
Excuse me I always knew since I was a little kid that I wanted to work with computers my dad was a programmer himself.
Applied mathematician,
they said in those days and so he started teaching me programming in basic when I was a little kid and I knew that I enjoyed that but I was never really clear as to what exactly my career would be so when I went to college I studied,
it is agreed that in in Spain with call telecommunications engineering,
and it’s something like it evolved from the school of telegraph is so that’s a lot of like phone networks and computer networks and song,
but then I went while I was in college I could also very very interested in organizational behavior and took a lot of courses and Dad they called it,
various things management of technology and so on I thought it was ready to,
really quite fascinating older research and all the thinking about how people come together to build things.
Technology but also sort of products and so when I was about to graduate actually thought that I would go and this and respect sounds very ridiculous but I said I was going to management consulting.

Christian Mccarrick:
[1:50] I don’t think it’s like a goal usually end up there.

Ana Ulin:
[1:53] So when I went when I grow up I want to be a consultant no but I said it was interesting the thinking about it was interesting but because I did have a very hard technical,
engineering background I ended up not doing that someone referred me.
To Google which hadn’t even been a company that wasn’t my Raider I was in Europe at the time I didn’t even realize they had offices in Europe,
this isn’t 2005 and I ended up getting a job there as an entry-level.
Test automation engineer actually which wasn’t really a great fit for my background I I know now in retrospect but I guess it made sense to them at the time and through their became.
Pretty of you know rather comfort in distributed systems engineer did a lot of back and work a lot of service side of work and over time we started doing some first and formal.
Technical leadership later on became a tech lead for Google Latitude blade around became an engineering manager and since leaving Google I’ve been doing both.
People management and Technical leadership and Hands-On where I get several small startups.

Christian Mccarrick:
[3:12] Sure and what was the should have had a pretty natural progression from the tech leading to the management wreck what was the final to switch that happened in a popcorn at into a management or had to happen something you wanted something your manager.

Ana Ulin:
[3:27] Something that I wanted and something that was needed in the organization.
I actually had a there was a gap there between the time when I was attacked clean and then I went back to being an individual contributor.
One of the main engineers in one of the back ends for Google plus communities and then as I was coming off of that project after we had launched one of my.
At the time. But he would become a manager later on approached me and said well you know where we do need someone to to be a manager over this new infrastructure,
and that’s how it happened it made sense this is a team that I was familiar with they had a very interesting task ahead and was an organization that I knew and,
and I knew that I wanted to be in a position where I could help people be more productive and work better together and kind of finger either drop some more.

Christian Mccarrick:
[4:24] And I know that Google search has been a lot of talk recently you know their project are installing the things have been a big focus on management was that kind of going on with you were there too or is that after.

Ana Ulin:
[4:35] That happened after so I left in early 2014 and I think the at least the outcome solo fold-up research has come out later,
Google has always have ever been running internal studies.
Culver’s thinks no Justin management says it was a little bit of that but I think they haven’t really started doubling down on what,
it means to be a good manager and what a good manager would you mean until third recently.

Christian Mccarrick:
[5:06] Yeah yeah and what if,
and I asked everyone to because it’s not you have you made any but which ones right still looking back on your career Google or some of the other company since then what were some of the mistakes you’ve made now it’s going to be more mature manager that you cringe upon.

Ana Ulin:
[5:24] Oh wow.

Christian Mccarrick:
[5:25] I have it so it’s like.

Ana Ulin:
[5:27] How many yeah yeah I think a lot of them boiled down to not listening to my instincts.
I think a lot of them boiled down to noticing something that doesn’t feel,
I tried and not fooling up on it early enough you know you have that you have that person in your team and you kind of sense with some things off but here like well I don’t want to be hovering in the air,
private person and then you realize that was a mistake the Ender there is a lot of that there is a lot of an organizational change that comes,
down from above so a great example is when I worked at a good eggs where I was hired as an engineering manager,
very shortly after me joining the company we had layoffs.
And at the time I have the choice to I could leave the company and get Severance or I could stay and be a manager there and when my manager is the CTO.
Oh he’s also one of the founders of a good X Katie came to me with this and we talked about how it was going to go.
Again it felt to me like well does this make sense relay it letting go of a lot of people would probably don’t need this many managers I just joined doesn’t make it.
Doesn’t make it that much sense for me to stay and and he asked me to stay and I and I said well you know I’m I’m sure you know he has his reasons so I stayed but in retrospect I think that.

[6:57] We did end up with a team composition that was not ideal right and that didn’t really work out and that’s another example of me like in the moment feeling like well I’m not sure about this but I’m going to,
too kind of work through it and some time to get better at that trying to get better at acknowledging that something doesn’t quite feel right and,
trying to understand what why that is.

Christian Mccarrick:
[7:19] Sure I think that got Instinct in the point that you make is so true and I’ve been through that and I think it’s something I ate I talk to my managers about once you’ve.
What’s that little tickle in your brain or that the thing in your conscience is going off it’s usually the correct thing right and it’s usually something that you should deal with immediately whether it’s a person or processor,
anything it’s like or as project that maybe you think isn’t quite going as well but you let it go another month because maybe to get back on track I think always dealing with things,
sooner rather than later I think it is a great example of of a mistakes a lot of early managers make or a lot of managers make in general.

Ana Ulin:
[7:55] And I think also the the point about following your instinct I find it so hard because I’m so we’re of how you know what we,
describe this Instinct can open also just be bias and conditioning and other things and so in as a manager,
I want to be extremely careful right you know when I follow up on that so-called Instinct what is it really that I’m doing it on my perpetuating a harmful pattern or or or is this something real right and I think that.

[8:24] I have personally tendency to fall too far into like oh I’m going to doubt this Instinct because maybe it’s not quite right and I think,
finding the right balance is right.

Christian Mccarrick:
[8:34] And it’s probably very important to in the area of hiring right when you get to set of selection bias and thanks to that you want to be very,
carefully more quantitative and not then that gut feeling so maybe hiring is an area that maybe should be conscious about you know using that.
Gut instinct to write any for you.
Any advice you give to your a new managers you have four people on the team that are just starting out or looking to become managers what would you recommend.

Ana Ulin:
[9:01] In terms of listening to their instinct.

Christian Mccarrick:
[9:03] Or just in general like they’re going to their brand new manager what are some of the things that that’s what I think we could we could you could call back cuz that’s a mistake I’ll make anything else any kind of tips for for new managers so when they’re just starting out.

Ana Ulin:
[9:16] Well I think my most important tip is to remember that.
You’re working with People for People supporting people and that it’s all about.
You truly caring about your people and you truly showing up as a real person and a big part of that is accepting when you don’t know things.
Apologizing when you mess up because you will mess up and it will be incredibly incredibly embarrassing and painful and you will like him to wake up at 3 a.m. and be like I can’t believe I did that,
and and it helps it helps you and it also will help the people that you work with if you know after you wake up at 3 a.m. when you show up,
at 10 a.m. the next day you say you know what I can’t believe I did that I’m really sorry that was really wrong of me.
And so I think what that’s really one of the most important tips I have right just be real realize that.
The people that you work with,
they want to have a good relationship with you they want to see you as a real person they don’t need you to be perfect they don’t need you to have all the answers right and that a lot of what management relief,
if it’s just you’re the person that has you know that drool me know the buck stops with you it doesn’t mean that.
That during anyway you no different from.

Christian Mccarrick:
[10:37] That’s right you might have the responsibility but doesn’t mean you know everything to get it done and I think that’s another good point that it takes the the burden.
Of perfectionism I think off of you as a manager,
because sometimes people think that the other manager now or that have boss and they have to be perfect but once you take that stress off of know you’re going to make mistakes and admit it to your team and they view you as a human,
I think I just said if it’s much more authentic relationship from the from your team and then the manager side.
Right so that’s awesome so you know one of the things to you’ve been suffering during manager a couple different companies.
Do you see any Transit big company more like Google versus smaller company would how does the role that you see different some of those types of organizations.

Ana Ulin:
[11:23] Changes Salon on North just I think from company to company but also depending on the lifetime of the project and in the.
Which isn’t quite the right word Fred but like face in the life cycle of a team right,
me know sometimes you’re managing a very young team and a lot of what you’re doing is helping the team gel figuring out whether cultural norms are weather technical Norms are,
what are there you know what’s their Vision are the strategy for their technology and sauna and sometimes a much more mature team your job is for a different you know you’re dealing with maybe more predatory into the questions or,
filling in any any roles that need feeling but it’s can be a much more Sid a job in a way.

[12:14] The other big difference I think you know from company to company to compare something like Google with with a smaller companies that I’ve worked with.

[12:25] In a large company it’s very easy for employees to feel.
Much more you know lost like a cog in the machine and I think that it’s also very easy for managers to going to this mode where you say I’m a manager at Google I have an engineering ladder and I know what the compounds are,
and I know you know there are others all the structure and processes that imposed from the outside that it’s very easy to be calm,
I’ll be too comfortable as a manager to say like well you know I just followed this and I know that you know in March will do this and in general do this and then we’ll have the performance conversation and then we will have your cares conversation,
I’m kind of like.
Step away a little bit from I think a big part of what management should be is that you should be thinking every week in a very intentional way about what the project needs what people need,
the business needs what the product needs and when you have all this external structure especially as a new manager.
It’s very easy to think that you don’t have to do that work right that somehow it’s been done for you well in a small company for better or worse.
You how you are Ed.

Christian Mccarrick:
[13:39] You have to do everything or a little bit more.

Ana Ulin:
[13:41] Yeah you have,
and it’s very obvious to you write that there is not such structure right that you have to sit down and figure out what is it going to mean to be you know engineering manager Cheryl,
what is it that this company needs right now,
and that is going to be changing all the time because your team is going to be growing and shrinking and splitting up and get getting reorganized,
so I think that’s maybe one of the biggest differences.

Christian Mccarrick:
[14:07] And it gives you a little more I think creative control to adopt the style to the team instead of having to follow.
path which might not be the optimal path for that team at that point I’m like you mentioned because your teams are constantly evolving personalities and size and life cycle.
Yeah I kind of agree that too it’s it’s less robotic right to be able to work on the start of the more exciting and yui talked about the at a bigger company sometimes it’s it’s hard to feel a little bit of part of that vision and everything in a smaller company I think it’s it’s all so easy.
To drive that team for the motivation in the excitement and this is what we’re doing and roll working together and it’s a smaller tangible piece that you can you can get your fingers on.
Took one of the things that I think a lot of managers go through and in reading some of your blog.
You you mentioned you don’t use these exact words but you know the concept of serve your manager.
Maybe you don’t quite have that confidence right attitude of imposter syndrome right you’re doing the job and you’re second-guessing yourself,
am I doing the right things people are they questioning me how did you sort of handle that is you kind of became your new manager and then you don’t pick a more mature as a manager.

Ana Ulin:
[15:20] Yeah I definitely still happens and I hope it continues happening and in a sense you know I think it would always be disturbing if I never ever question myself again how do I handle it I think.
I think a big part of it is learning as I was saying before to say.
I don’t know or I think I messed up or I changed my mind and I no longer think that was the right thing to do and realizing as I do that that,
people still respect me that,
I still have a job that that things continue moving forward that that I still overall despite my mistakes and my flaws I still do a good job and I think that.
That process of falling down and picking yourself up up again I think builds a lot of that confidence I think,
another thing that’s really help me a lot and help me early on was talking to my own manager about how all you know I find so and so so intimidating you know I need to go and get buy-in on this thing and you know she’s just going to.
Because she’s going to shoot me down and and I remember having this conversation with my manager and it keeps saying to me like oh yeah every time I talk with him like my knees are weak after work.
And me realizing that okay so it’s not just me everyone goes through this and someone.
As my manager at the time who I so is so experienced and accomplished and in.

[16:53] You know someone queried it looked have to also had this reactions you know an end hearing that from him so simply said like oh yeah you know he’s just really intimidating that’s that’s it snowed you you know it’s.
I think that really helps I think that that’s maybe another two for any managers that having some kind of support network and other managers that you can talk to you.
Is extremely helpful I think one thing that we don’t talk about enough in the blogs and in the books and sign is that,
becoming a manager is actually very lonely because you have this different relationship with your team and you might care about them but you’re no longer one of the team in that sense and you need to find that support in those,
other peers that you can talk to about this thing’s right in the end that can reflect back to you like hey you know like your instincts are in wrong or or you know you’re not.

[17:48] We know you’re not the only one going through this and that’s so helpful.

Christian Mccarrick:
[17:51] Yeah and I just talked about this in a podcast I did recently too with Kate Houston and we talked about that it’s lonely at the top and it is without peer Network.
Yeah it just because it’s really hard so that it doesn’t of the thing is is coaching and pure networks find their support network however you can write and use them right I think that’s definitely important thing.
Another item in one of your blog posts and it kind of struck me the wording used and I really liked it I think it resonated maybe talk about.
Give yourself as a gardener of teams right and I kind of I’d like that like the word I like to come to the phrase things but wouldn’t that mean to you and you when you wrote that.

Ana Ulin:
[18:30] Well I was trying to convey the fact that I really see a team as a.
As a growing organism that’s me out of meaning to Beedrill organisms and also the idea that this is not it’s not static it’s definitely living.
and evolving constantly evolving and it’s something that can take many shapes and be beautiful and work well in many different kinds of games you configuration so many different shapes you know,
Garden City different Traditions look very different and in different seasons they look different so I wanted to convey that I also wanted to convey the fact that again I think that as a manager and my role is to.
Be a steward to that.
And not someone that comes in and says I know exactly how it’s going to be and this is the shape it should have and you know I’m I’m not an architect I’m not.
You know whatever whatever other analogy you want to come up with but it’s it’s more of a view of stewardship and I’ve taken care of and I’ll facilitating things and and not imposing.

Christian Mccarrick:
[19:35] Yeah and I think annual so you know talk more about how the maybe the soft side of being an injury manager is not necessarily.
It’s something that’s important to some companies versus others where is Monica project management side is really a focus but less so on the.
The soft skills and the coaching in the management and the cultivating right in the nurturing of these people.
And I think that’s something that I think now there’s a lot more assertive.
Information out there in a lot more Consciousness about that the importance of that.
And I think that’s you know that’s why I started podcast and I’m trying to help to give back a little bit but I think it’s really important to and that you know I was talking all too if you know that Bethany McKinney blunt,
last week too and you she’s talking everyday my job is to make my team more badass right that’s what you said and it’s not about like getting the results it’s like making your team better,
and then the results will follow right I think it’s so important to do that.
What are the things that I want to talk a little bit more in the show two is you’ve been involved with the hackbright academy right for some of listeners out there who might not kind of know what that is could just give me a little background of really what the heck Pride economy is.

Ana Ulin:
[20:51] Sure they’re basically coding bootcamp.
And the focus only on women so older students identify as women that’s basically what they are there.
Programs for Christmas mostly and Python and JavaScript and they’ve been around for quite a few years now and said I have a good number of women graduates.

Christian Mccarrick:
[21:13] Yeah and and you’re also a mentor for the hackbright Academy to write so what does that involve.

Ana Ulin:
[21:19] So anyone who is part of the tech industry especially software Engineers are encouraged to volunteer as mentors what it means is that you make yourself available to a student,
I typically for the duration of a session which are which last three months and they have several a year each student will get two or three Mentos assigned to them and then the mentor,
you can help them with all sorts of things with our project they help or we help.
With interview preparation with job search different members will have different focuses so,
some interest get very involved with things like final projects helping with actual debugging coding or thinking through the ux of their final project report of like writing from,
brightest that they to build a web app extreme build storm.
In my case I tend to focus more on like how it is to work in the industry how to look for jobs things like interview coaching so it is a very,
it is a really nice opportunity to help someone to get started in the industry and to provide that supported that I think all of us need and.
Can use both with the hard time Eagle stuff but also with a softer stuff about.
How to get started you know well what where do you find the job.

Christian Mccarrick:
[22:43] And you mentioned that the academy itself is just for women all Dementors women as well or is it women Amendment.

Ana Ulin:
[22:49] No yeah women and men are Mentor so so anyone can can do it.

Christian Mccarrick:
[22:54] Okay and in for the people listening to attack Pride Academy you can buy the Google search it also put in the show notes and you can find out more on kind of information there.
In general what do you view as the depositors are for hiring somebody out of a coding Academy like Akron.

Ana Ulin:
[23:11] So I’ve had actually the pleasure of working with a few code Academy graduates and I found time and time again that the probably the biggest.
Plus is that you’re hiring someone who you might think of as a junior engineer because they are entry-level that just graduated from a code academy.
But in many ways they are they are not Junior,
I typically these are people who are changing careers that are the star people have professional experience often many years of professional experience and they bring,
an ability to self-manage a maturity and ability to work in teams that you do not see as much in for example and you grab the jacket that just came out of Stanford.

Christian Mccarrick:
[23:59] Sure.

Ana Ulin:
[23:59] For example and that’s incredibly valuable especially in small teams especially in small companies and so I think code academy.
Graduates will more than make up for.
Yes they have a sinner formal background and see us but they have that other ability of freely being able to see what’s needed by the business by the team really how to handle themselves in the workplace.
Is really sometimes really really Pleasant to work with.

Christian Mccarrick:
[24:33] Yeah so they come in the sense of maturation you know off the bat and you want two things I’ve found two is that.
There they’ve taken the self-initiative right to do this usually on a night or weekend or the taking time off from work or they quit their job and it’s a real commitment to the people out of town to come out of the store very.
Like I said very self-starting they have that motivation that really want to make this work at and they really don’t come out thinking like you know if they’re entitled to things.
Which makes her you don’t like I said that makes up for it maybe some of the lack of pure technical aspects of it.
How do you how would you convince a in a reluctant hiring manager to consider,
people coming out of a code academy in right at some of the listeners out there you know I you know I only or make them I work for a company that has we have to have a siesta.
How do you over pie know you’re making a face and I agree right here how do you get over that concept or maybe it’s it’s institutional thing or HRC how do you what’s your what’s your address,
argument to say no you’re being wrong you need to consider these people.

Ana Ulin:
[25:44] I don’t have a CS degree I worked at Google as a software engineer for 9 years I do not have a CS degree.
Yeah but I think you know that you know we don’t need a CS degree but how do we how do we convince.
Hiring manager and I think my question is always to the hiring manager what is it that you’re afraid of something,
something that I often sees that we talked about the risk of hiring someone with a non-traditional background or we talked about the risk of hiring someone who is less experience but never talk about the risks of hiring someone experience,
do people ever talk about the risks of hiring you know me or you and there are big risks by the way I hope my boss isn’t.
But it’s true you know what we we make this mistake of thinking that somehow like because someone looks more traditional on paper that the risks are less right and so let’s take a step back.
I I say to her manager and say like what are you looking for are you looking for someone who.
Can be good as a part of a team who knows how to work well with others,
most code academy grads know that they’ve experienced it another workplaces workplaces that often are much more structured and strict and quote unquote professionals and what were used to cure.
In Silicon Valley so that’s one aspect of it the other aspect is okay.

[27:16] There are some real risk for example their formal CS background might be thinner for a for a code academy graduate.
That is that is a real thing how important is that for you are you building a team off I don’t know machine learning people who are going to be pushing the boundaries creating you algorithms most people are.

Christian Mccarrick:
[27:40] Probably not right.

Ana Ulin:
[27:41] Most people are not but even if you are,
actually you know a friend of mine she’s a research and machine learning activity and she was saying to me and I know nothing about machine learning,
you’re saying to me like all you know it’s always fascinating to me how I can put us up changing your general is together with the research scientist in after three months this afternoon your general is knows everything that we search scientist knows but the research scientist still can’t ship.
So anyway as a footnote I think but I think that actually look straight something that.
I would encourage both hiring manager sending general managers to think a lot about which is that teams are.
Teams they are not just like he know an assembly of people and so you can be to get a lot of this risk by thinking carefully,
about how do you pair your new team members with right in okay so you have this risk your hiring a code academy grad maybe their background is in Astro so,
so pair them on their first project with someone who is much more experienced in the areas where they are lacking and where they can help each other where they can learn.
And where they can get that support right you know I always think about how like when I started my job I didn’t know what I was doing.

Christian Mccarrick:
[28:56] And what about and I’ve seen this to a little bit and.
It’s not the manager but you have say someone on the team who’s has the you know that CS degree in their masters in computer science and then you hire and they will now I have to work.
You know this person and I mean they’re just not going to do anything. How was your manager know to you should have convinced the team member to.
Convinced to do 2 parrying or that is actually a valuable part of the team member.

Ana Ulin:
[29:26] Well so first of all,
if you have a team member who is so so very skeptical Bullock skeptical about someone who isn’t coming into the team that is a little bit of a warning sign,
writing in maybe you want to start thinking about where do you have people in your team who are that skeptical or.
That are like that or that you know how it how it is like for example in small companies him for a used two teams interviewing their future teammates so how is it that you’re hiring someone that people in the team raining.

Christian Mccarrick:
[30:01] Sure sure.

Ana Ulin:
[30:02] That in and of itself this is may be a problem but,
the bouquet at a place like Google this would come only happen right you know teams done don’t own their own hiring pipeline so how do you get someone excited well first of all you need to realize that you can’t get.
Everyone excited and if that is the case maybe this person shouldn’t be pairing with your new team member because that’s just not setting anyone up for success.
But assuming that you can so there are few things that you can say one is that.

[30:35] A lot of software Engineers despite how much we groan about management and how much minutes no technical they want to advance in the latter they wanna if they want to take formal leadership positions maybe management,
point on boarding a mentoring or the first Stepping Stones how Engineers typically do that.
You want to One Day become a tickly do you want to One Day become a manager while your first step is you mentoring you people on your team this is a great opportunity for you as an individual contributor to learn how to do that.
To learn how to listen to someone how to look at them and try to understand what do they need one might be helpful for them how how do you help them be successful what are the things that they are stumbling on how do you establish a relationship,
they feel comfortable asking you for help or telling you know when they’re struggling.
So that’s one big thing the other side of it is is.
Very simple and you know it goes back to what we were talking about earlier on about being a sin taken just being real psyquel.
If you are than your person coming onto the team wouldn’t you want to have a welcoming experience team member that’s there to help you I don’t know I would I would want that.

Christian Mccarrick:
[31:47] And hopefully your culture and your team is supporting that.

Ana Ulin:
[31:49] Yes exactly so so you know I ain’t a verb.
Basic why I think it’s just a feeling you know to the humanity of it right like you know don’t you want to welcome this person into into the house and yes it will help your career will you know how this and that of course I think,
as a manager you also need to create an environment where it’s safe for the.
The 14 members to take time to abort someone this is this is one problem I’ve seen on some teams were.

[32:20] People are expected to mentor to help on board but they are also still expected to be doing the exact same amount of.
Work well I can yell at coding and so on as they were doing before which is completely unreasonable right you know if I’m going to spend you know.
Several hours today pairing with someone specifically with the goal of bringing them up to speed I’m not going to be us as productive in terms of like.
You know we are submitting myself so.

Christian Mccarrick:
[32:47] That’s right and I think that’s a good point just in time management in general for managers as their you know during the Spring plantings I also find some people.
You know they look at their velocity and all those points but they date they forget to take out things like interviewing time and coaching time or whatever else had happened meetings and all the things that you’re not really getting 8 to 9 hours a day of coding in writing some people.
Understand that I eat one thing too I think that some of the people coming through these these code academy serosa coming from non-traditional backgrounds right.
And by including.
I be using your hiring pipeline right you can help also with with your kind of helping with diversity and inclusion in your organization as well right and.
And by executing it I think you do the opposite right you’re actually making your choice to exclude so you know non people not racial background and they might be you know.
Need a whatever type of potentially underrepresented the group right and I think it’s it’s important to to give everyone a chance and to really try to have those you know those teams that are more diverse right.
Red and is part of the hiring process how do you companies typically get involved in the process of hiring from say hack brighter the code academy.

Ana Ulin:
[34:04] So
Virtually all the coat academies have as a very end of each session they will have a demo day and they will have a career fair where companies are invited to two common and,
do quick interviews meet the candidates look at the demo saw the final projects and stuff so that’s the typical way in which of these companies get involved,
of course you can also search LinkedIn and in sources like that all all all code Academy graduates are forever well coached by by the foot camps to,
you know right all the saints and their resumes and to have like a good online but yeah have a good online presence how you know a good do you know.

Christian Mccarrick:
[34:47] Probably better than your typical Engineers out there.

Ana Ulin:
[34:50] Absolutely yeah much better.

Christian Mccarrick:
[34:51] Yeah I know that’s one of the things I found on to it as as I kind of came up in the management ranks how important that concept of.
Self serve you know getting hurt yourself at that from a PR standpoint is and how much it matters not just.
Externally but also in your company as well as having a lot of Engineers especially those that you’re some background view that is just a waste of time right I’m just coating that’s all that matters right that’s really not right it’s the whole perception is reality kind of saying right,
that’s a really matters right so so great and what.
Whether it’s about hackbright or code academy is or set of management leadership in general would you have any other sort of idea that you think are important to you like to share kind of with the audience.

Ana Ulin:
[35:37] Well I think one idea that I’m very that I’ve been playing with and that I’m very.
Interested in exploring further as I progress in my career is this idea that we haven’t yet found the answers to a lot of important questions,
around management around well.
What is really a good way of organizing a team of what is a good way of doing what we call Performance Management and what the goal is of that for example and I feel like we have so much pays.
At least in the industry here in San Francisco and Silicon Valley where there is so much freedom to experiment with different ways of doing things that I think it’s it’s very interesting and very important that we do that,
that we all as manager is done just so you know continue doing what we’ve always done because it’s sort of seems to work but actually ask ourselves well what are things that we can tweak and what’s actually the goal of this process is an old over this way sometime.

Christian Mccarrick:
[36:34] That’s it that’s an awesome point to always be self-reflecting and what you’re doing and how you can improve and be better.
Carnival anecdote in looking your block to I saw you took like the Goodreads challenge this year 25 books some of the ones you posted actually looked at a few of the same ones you going to go to the 51 next year right is that.

Ana Ulin:
[36:57] I’m going for the 50 this year.

Christian Mccarrick:
[36:58] This year okay how do you feel that reading in general kind of helps helps you just in life or your career did you think there’s a correlation there.

Ana Ulin:
[37:08] Oh absolutely it helps and so so many ways.
Some ways are very you know simple obvious ways like English is my third language so,
so obviously you know if I hadn’t spent a lot of time reading books in English when I was growing up I don’t think I could speak it.

Christian Mccarrick:
[37:24] Sure sure.

Ana Ulin:
[37:24] Yes I do but also I think there are.
There are the obvious reasons riding are you you’ll read a book about management and it tells me some tips about hotel how to connect one-on-one so you get better at 1 and 1 so that’s great but I think there are more subtle details to you know I read a lot of fiction and.
It is just so helpful in.
Teaching us how others might be feeling and thinking and seeing the world and a lot of what we doing management you know even the much dreaded politics are all about,
understanding all the rescind you know sitting at the table and having a negotiation and.

Christian Mccarrick:
[38:04] Friends.

Ana Ulin:
[38:06] Hopefully not hopefully much Kinder than Game of Thrones.
But a buddy I think it I think it’s extremely helpful you know in being able to understand ourselves better and other is better and just be that more realistic person as we speaking.

Christian Mccarrick:
[38:24] And it does help I think it done studies to the children reading even section really helps to really help Stone your empathy right towards others and getting out of their Viewpoint from other people.
Okay you have your Twitter sort of description is scary women engineer right how did that come about.

Ana Ulin:
[38:42] Oh that’s just a temporarily temporary thing because it’s October and in October 11th people change their name on Twitter to a scary name.

Christian Mccarrick:
[38:54] Do that time time is running out and they have.

Ana Ulin:
[38:56] Yeah yeah you can be scary Christian,
yeah and as I was thinking I’m terrible at naming as we all know naming is very hard and so I couldn’t think of anything and there was a total conversation happening started by Erica Baker where she was.
Conjuring house when women get this gendered feedback that said we’re intimidating in the workplace and and so I was like I guess I I shall call myself because that is a piece of a good many years ago and some,
peer feedback.

Christian Mccarrick:
[39:29] Yeah yeah that’s a whole nother discussion thread unfortunate unfortunate actions if those people at the end,
resources blogs you know podcast talks books anything that you would recommend for kind of managers to to look at the stuff you get better.

Ana Ulin:
[39:48] Well the recent book by Camille Fournier that everybody’s.
Included is really excellent called the managers path but talking about supporting at work since since you made mention Kate Heston Chicot Edmonds Community for engineering managers which is incredibly helpful.
And I don’t remember the year all of the top of my head but I’m sure you can people can Google it.

Christian Mccarrick:
[40:15] The slack channel for newish managers I think it’s a Google search.

Ana Ulin:
[40:20] Yeah yeah something like that but there is a lot of people there with very very level sofa,
experience are some very experienced people there any text you it’s a great great resource to really bounce ideas and talk about challenges you’re facing and asked for pointers tomorrow,
highly recommended.

Christian Mccarrick:
[40:37] Great well thank you very much for joining me on the show today I had a great conversation and hope you did as well excellent have a great afternoon.

Ana Ulin:
[40:43] Yeah I did thank you thank you.