Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Subscribe: iTunes | Android | RSS
Patrick Kua is A Principal Technical Consultant at Thoughtworks. He is also the author of “The Retrospective Handbook: A guide for agile teams” and “Talking with Tech Leads: From Novices to Practitioners.” Patrick brings harmony to technical and non-technical realms, leading teams and writing software for production systems in .Net, Java and Ruby.
Patrick is passionate about working closely with teams, helping them grow and learn with sustainable and long-term change, and sometimes facilitating situations beyond adversity. Patrick relies on retrospectives as a basis for improving teams, and is passionate about helping people achieve maximum value from the retrospective practice.
You can follow his blog at http://www.thekua.com/atwork or on twitter at @patkua
Show Notes:
“Talking with Tech Leads: From Novices to Practitioners”
“The Retrospective Handbook: A guide for agile teams”
(transcript provided by Google API)
Show Transcript:
Christian:
[0:05] Hello Patrick welcome to the show.
Patrick Kua:
[0:07] Hi Kristin thanks for having me on the show.
Christian:
[0:09] Absolutely and where you calling from today patch.
Patrick Kua:
[0:12] I’m based here in London where it’s actually quite funny phone so happy about that.
Christian:
[0:17] Oh excellent I’ll actually be going through London Gatwick airport tomorrow on my way to Holiday which I’m looking forward to.
Patrick Kua:
[0:23] Wonderful I hope you have a good trip and I can connection.
Christian:
[0:27] Yes as well as well it’s a bunch of thank you again for coming on the show wanted to go into a brief.
Bit of your background I normally interview a couple different types of people in the show whether their engineering managers and themselves or participate in the field somehow and you yourself a very interesting background how can you tell me a little.
Patrick Kua:
[0:46] Yeah sure I’m sorry I guess my background is coming from development background where I’ve done so Java Ruby and JavaScript development of systems,
everything from said of back-end services that need to set of scales at Great bass type systems,
set of mobile assitive.
Web-based type systems so all types of development and I typically lead development teams when I’m actually,
building code and I still do that actually and I work as a consultant so that means that it kind of depends on what we need to do for our clients,
at the other end of the spectrum the most of heavy Consulting and advice site is actually working with so ctas VP engineering engineering managers around how they pops.
Builds I guess technical capability as well as if a constant puzzle in it which is how can we deliver more with less how do we scale out of people.
Yeah and that really ties into I guess my passion around undescending technical leadership,
it’s a challenge that we’ve certainly had something that I’ve been trying to address and really sharing a lot of thought about helping developers make that transition into a,
having impact and that’s really about the whole theme around technical leadership to me that I am very passionate about.
Christian:
[2:03] I’ve heard it often heard a saying that code scales but people don’t.
Patrick Kua:
[2:06] That’s pretty messed Frasier.
Christian:
[2:09] How did you get into Tech the vision of Trinity obviously have started from a technical background and continue to do that did you know what was the onus for you to looking around and say wow there’s really does really Gap here.
Patrick Kua:
[2:21] Yeah I guess you know been with my company footworks for 13 years and it’s been interesting cuz I still remember my first time being thrown into a leadership role and it’s quite scary can I have this suddenly a whole well to expectations that has a Chavela that you would never exposed to,
and there’s a lot of pressure booth in leading a team dealing with people and as well as saying technical,
and I guess it came out of a little bit of maybe frustration you know I think what I see with a little organizations as the people team often really try to help people organize training and did not show this to focus on,
people skills leadership skills and I think what was really missing was the kind of context of technical leadership skills within the context of the.
The role that really develop is transitioning into a Glade Road house so I guess out of that frustration I was kind of wanting to,
to solve that problem being a developer when it’s old problems and I guess having spent a lot of time with different types of leaders I felt that I had enough balance of like a knowledge of trying to build something that could help people ease into that transition.
Christian:
[3:30] Sure especially people out of Big Technical backgrounds I think they don’t also get some of that.
Training that if you go to a business degree or you go for a leadership role and other things you don’t have gone through school and had some leadership courses or you might have interned and kinda some management roles but typically that I find.
He is especially with a lot of the managers that I inherit that they didn’t coding for 6 years and Monday morning they come in their manager.
Patrick Kua:
[3:57] Yeah that’s a shock to the system at what does that mean and what do I do.
Christian:
[4:02] Exactly so for you you know what does what does what is the concept of technical leadership mean to you cuz you know there’s a concept of management and Leadership and then to find a little bit for me how that how you think about that.
Patrick Kua:
[4:14] Yeah I guess I prefer the term lead of a manager I think I managed from portion I think organizations need manages and what I really like about the time Lita is.
I think when people see manager they see it as a title and a position and I think we the leader it’s really about an act about taking a leadership,
and I see this all the time with you really passionate Developers,
when a reprieve pop the crate base or you know they want to maybe a job the new technology and I have to convince everyone that to me is a form of leadership,
I guess what I really love about the term Lita is that I believe that anyone can be a later if they really severely passion about something in the can,
bring everyone along with them on that search any I think also in the context of sulfur development where in it’s very rare that people went by themselves these days you,
have to work with teams and other develop is to get things done you know this that whole thing is that you leave people and you manage resources or other things and you can’t really manage people that people,
how people are they don’t like being managed they like the autonomy and having an opinion say to me I guess I really like the idea about.
Leadership and Leadership because it’s really anything anyone can to play that role but also,
I think when people sometimes fall into the management truck they think they need to really just focus on the known technical side and,
and I thinking today so the engineering well that’s really funny because I think the tomaka touch seem so full and a favor people see that as a big Ivory Tower architect.
[5:50] Actually there is something about leading the technical vision and biggest system picture I think a lot of people forget about these days.
And that to me is really a load of the essence of stovetec leadership which is kind of an overlap of I guess General leadership management skills a little bit more experience around Building Systems soda thinking about.
To the system architecture the environment in which software Works parole City abilities for used to write and build code alongside a team and so it’s kind of the overlap of these kind of three areas that I feel is the key to successful Tech leadership.
Christian:
[6:26] And having worked in the industry for so long do you feel that it’s actually harder to be a tech leader than it is to say maybe be leadership in another vertical.
Patrick Kua:
[6:37] It’s really hot actually cuz I guess I haven’t really wanted on the medic.
A little story cuz I have a couple of friends back home in Australia where I grew up and they work in medicine so some good friends from University and one of them was an emergency medical doctor and,
I think they actually have the same problem when you know people silly in the specialist of the field and then that gets ran into a management position and.
You know it’s all the skills that you build up in your vertical and it’s kind of the same experience of Venice Italy what does that actually mean.
Do you do some of those things that you would do in that to the field of medicine or you know the the people and the Savannah station than having to deal with.
People’s individual preferences conflicts your habits and having to find a balance across the organization say I think I actually is quite similar and I think that’s definitely value in field in everybody talking about.
The context of leadership in the challenges in the context of the problems that people would see in that field so for us and Technology I think you know it is this kind of make of us multiply attention,
when you are developing a really focused on some output to what you write and then when you move into a lead of manager role.
You’re really thinking about amplifying that and then you know what does that mean when you’re actually working in the same crate bass right so it’s kind of a slightly different problem than maybe enough.
Medical fields and I think it’s quite interesting cuz I think there are parallels but they’re also differences across reticles.
Christian:
[8:09] And what are the things that you say that you feel is very important as well for being an attack leadership role is to continue to code.
Patrick Kua:
[8:16] Yeah yeah.
Christian:
[8:19] Yeah so tell me about why you don’t because they were different sides of the coin about that right different different opinions on definitely stink technical but you certainly have a kid I think it’s about 30% of the time about you making sure you’re in the code you tell me about that.
Patrick Kua:
[8:33] Yeah I guess it’s me told about to the feedback loops and you know I think one of the biggest things is when people feel that there may be an architect will think about that you know they think their responsibility is about the pic a picture,
and actually you know sometimes the pic a picture is.
Sings of August sets the boundaries and contacts for how decisions get made but you still want to evaluate whether or not that’s the right thing for your actually building,
and I guess it’s really interesting because I was talking to an ox hitch group recently with the clients and,
you know that distinguishing feature was about AQHA Texas at United of the people that make decisions and it’s kind of fastening because developers have to make decisions all the time where to put code,
which libraries are tools that they tore up on an each one of those can actually make the system less scalable or more difficult to change the future,
you know I think it’s quite different from saying the nineties we’re actually when you make a decision,
the landscape doesn’t change so much that’s the timeframe of how long that systems going to be built where is in today’s you know well we have open source technologies that mean that this libraries Galore web Frameworks change all the time in the Travis crippled,
and actually you know the length of how decisions should have lost get shorter and shorter and say everyone gets involved in the decision-making process so that.
Set a criteria for another difference of an ox and develop it makes me different sir I think the meat at Leeds need to be added because they need to understand the implications of the decisions I make.
[10:04] The I guess need to also build an empathy with the developers and twisting agree I think technical people,
it’s all about really respect right so it’s good that you considered maybe tell people what to do will make a decision but you also is a leader responsible for making sure that.
That maybe decision gets lift out and it’s hard to do that unless you have the respect with people,
and I see this all the time when you have people who will make you too far away from the code and the trying to maybe push their own opinion on something and it just doesn’t fit the problem,
an all the developers kind of light roll their eyes and what the heads and yeah will do this thing and then they’re more pragmatic cuz I have to sell the problem and I do what they,
can giving you know that cinnamon tea say yeah.
Christian:
[10:49] How do you work not only with should have individual contributors and first line managers and tech leads but you also mentioned that you also consult with VP of engineering and ciccio’s.
How do you recommend or what’s your thought on as you could further up away from the code to still you know what’s your thought that you’re not into go up to that c211 ring me about VP of engineering level about you know staying in touch with.
Patrick Kua:
[11:13] I guess part of it is so what I really focus on is trying to.
Check me some principles say I think those are the things that really trendsend you know your old types technology stats and then it’s really about finding opportunities when you can’t work with people.
On pots the system so you know might be about actually working with people in production support because actually that’s really.
Place where maybe the decisions that were made will completely wrong and it’s a good feedback Point around may be reviewing octet rule decisions technology choices maybe it’s about actually getting involved in the build-out in creation you systems,
and I think it’s really so that may be working as you said to go up you’re really trying to work a lot closer with maybe.
A list of Hands-On Tech legal system,
light singing developing a system help may be on the stand what are the common problems that you’re trying to have and maybe I can find ways of unblocking that from a technical perspective so some of that might be about.
Facilitating discussions around how do a pi standardized within the organization,
say that there are no surprises across the organization you’re trying to up to my eyes across a broad spectrum and to do that you kind of need to be out to read code on the sun with its difference is,
understand the trade-offs between unit problems at one time maybe having this another,
and then we’ll see I guess trying to reconcile with a whole group about what is a good technical solution and part of that might then be maybe sitting down with different teams doing so,
crib reviews with them technical retrospectives or should a party type thing so I think that’s definitely ways to keep you in touch I didn’t think as you go up you don’t necessarily and they shouldn’t be fixed we Tatian that you are The Grouchy person that can answer the latest questions about.
[12:56] Next Fremont Library tool that’ll never really happen but there’s a lot of wisdom that you can probably bring with no providing context about how systems were built and why,
what is constraints what also hopefully over time you should love to catalog of,
experiences of I’m just setting different types architectural patents everything from the different types of databases that you might use to,
methods of scalability through maybe asynchronous architectures or different types of things that you can sort of maybe help inject knowledge and amplify the effectiveness of teams that don’t really know about them same.
Christian:
[13:32] Yeah definitely and I think it’s very important that you bring back the concept of people really respecting you and understanding you because you don’t want to get into that position which is easy to get into and of stumbling to this a couple times myself,
wondering why you get an estimate back for recert of a story points and why is this so long and you should have questioned them and then they look at you like well you have no idea cuz you haven’t you know.
In the trenches here for this module and is here as your systems growing scale you can’t as sincerely have your foot and every single code base for every single project in and Tina’s going on your come.
Patrick Kua:
[14:06] Yeah yeah.
Christian:
[14:08] But it is important definitely I grew that the other things too I learned the hard way is to not put yourself if you’re going to stay in the code not put yourself in the critical path of of releases.
Patrick Kua:
[14:18] Oh yeah I totally agree with that I think I made that one of the first mistakes first times I was Ted leading and it’s very stressful.
Christian:
[14:25] Yeah it is I think you’re the whole team is all excited and and you’re up at midnight on Sunday to complete your story points because the Sprint closed on Monday morning.
Patrick Kua:
[14:33] Exactly,
how it looks for a find a paper grooming is really great way of doing that say no actually full-time pair programming but actually work when people in light design General approach and then when you go away and you come back hopefully things are probably evolved but at least you’ll know,
surprised by how things are done but the critical Works things went really be blocks then so I find that’s really successful way of maybe being involved important things but not being this at a critical blucky.
Christian:
[15:00] Yeah know that. Definitely that doesn’t make sense.
Go back a little bit to your detect leadership training so you’ve been in the trenches you see this you do this Consulting what.
What are the biggest things that you see when you go into firm or company in and they see what are the gaps typically is our common set of things that people want you to work on that they see as deficiency.
Patrick Kua:
[15:23] Yes I think in general that’s a bit of clarification of the Roll saying I think it was really interesting when I was thinking about the people team about why they couldn’t provide training for developers moving into that role and I think to a lot of people it’s just a mystery about you know you see,
good leads and it’s light well how did they get that nobody really knows what they kind of maybe do,
what skills do they developed actually get the answer for me it’s really about maybe helping organizations with management people team as well as the technical team to understand the shape of that role.
So I think that straight chat help bring Clarity to responsibilities I think you know people go you most senior and therefore you know your leader and you know if she gay,
the dirt really articulate what does elated mean what does that mean in the context development and how should I behave differently from those.
Developers and I think Auntie Pam that I see you which is you know.
Perfectly normal for first-time techneeds is they see themselves as most senior and therefore they need to make all the important decisions.
And that’s really a model that doesn’t scale so out right you know the whole shift in view of your role now is actually about maximizing the potential of all the other developers that you have is quite different from.
You taking all the calls and that’s a huge shift because I think for let it develop his you know they used to solving the problem themselves and getting that cake from a.
And that’s the real challenge I think there’s something about that as a kurta you get this kind of yes it works so no it doesn’t what kind of feedback it’s immediate pretty much.
[16:57] As acid of tech lead you kind of do things and you don’t really know you kind of have to wait to see if it’s going to fit maybe you wanted two weeks later maybe it’s even a month.
And that’s a real struggle for a lot of I think tech leads.
Christian:
[17:11] Yeah and to go back to a point you just made it to the ability to delegate I think is important things that people need to learn as a first-time Tech.
Patrick Kua:
[17:19] Absolutely yeah yeah and I think it’s kind of the spectrum so during the course I couldn’t talk about the situation Leadership Model,
what about how you interact with people in different styles so you everything from maybe being would rectiv I’m actually also unit coaching skills really useful about maybe,
you are trying to guide somebody but not necessarily give them all the answers let them Discover it from the cells as well as I may be working with people and currently collaborating with them.
Solving problem and then finally to use of Delegation which as you know you just making sure that these things are done and fully up to make sure that they too careful it up with.
Christian:
[17:56] Isleta self satisfaction I think when people figure things out for themselves is a coder if you work on a challenge your problem and you figured out there’s a great sense of accomplishment and I think the same thing as true as a management right if someone just walks into tells you how to do it.
You know it’s it’s not as satisfying as guiding them look like a path and they feel that satisfaction really of having help someone along and helping their team grow in the process.
Patrick Kua:
[18:18] Yeah absolutely and I think that’s the struggle of people news that role is recognizing what that difference is because that.
Malaysia tightly is going to give them the answer the bill get the feedback but the person they tell Fiesta to where you get that same sort of reaction.
Christian:
[18:34] I know you mentioned and I want to know if if you use these terms interchangeably write you commonly use the term Tech laid right and there is the specific role of an engineering.
In your mind are they the same or their differences to tell me a little bit about.
Patrick Kua:
[18:51] Yeah I guess it’s interesting when I go to different companies cuz there are different models of how you see this say I think sometimes engineering managers.
Say some engineering managers I’ve talked to has fallen in that role coming from quite a different background so they might be a scrum Master project manager and say the skills and background is it may be more focused on the environment.
Around you know trying to make sure that people have the right.
Computing resources technical dependencies relationships are the teams maybe they were bit more responsible for sale and management,
explicit personal development of all the team at the same time you know,
if they come from the background they can’t really then they didn’t really have the skills to leave the technical vision and architecture so you kind of hope that somebody knows he might do that depending on if you have a bunch of senior people that could play the tetris,
lead role that might happen but sometimes you know I’ve seen problems with the engine room entry comes from the background you have a whole bunch of Junior developers and the system becomes a bit of a mess because you have,
different ways to doing things that snorunt told about what should of scalability requirements LP Wilhelm I be deployed and say that side of it kind of gets dropped.
So when the engineer manager I guess comes from that background what I typically see us at lead ammo draw released,
become necessary which is then that Focus around instead of 10 I guess I’ve also seen places where the engineering manager is that Tech lead.
And I think what happens is that I guess they have all of those responsibilities lead and the engineering manager and sometimes depending on how big the team is and how much stressor is they can be quite overloaded.
[20:32] Say you know trying to do personal development plans Trinity recruiting,
trying to do all these triaging often it’s more time that takes away from actually looking at maybe the technical qualities of the system and also trying to make sure that everyone on this team is growing from a title perspective so the.
Everything from country to different parts of the system equally so I guess it’s a real Consultants or pens,
different models and I guess where I see it most successfully is really this kind of maybe split with ownership with her injury manager may be focusing on environmental Administration,
political side paps to organization depending on how big it is and then Tech lead very much focused on to the system technical version and in some places you know you might have that person that has the skills and experience to be able to do both of them.
Christian:
[21:26] Serta true symbiotic relationship between the tech lead and manager do you think the teams consider scale to be a little larger than if you have that.
Patrick Kua:
[21:35] Yeah definitely so where I’ve seen it what really well I think you can get up to a Teemo say.
[21:42] 12 or 15 developers that way and you know I think for a single person that becomes quite difficult just even doing one-on-ones with people but I think with two people splitting some of that you can do a level.
Christian:
[21:55] Yeah I’ve seen that child that in some of my larger teams here and it worked out exactly as you said it was a person who came up to the engineering manager role that.
Didn’t have is deep of a technical background as some of the people on their team and assertive having that Tech lead under under them really prove to be of every kind of nice working relationship and pear.
[22:18] What did you you see people get promoted you coming to organizations what are some of the most common mistakes that you see new tech leads through this new injury managers make.
Patrick Kua:
[22:30] Siri what level is a lot of them.
Christian:
[22:35] What’s a whole episode.
Patrick Kua:
[22:36] I guess the first one with you talked about earlier with this kind of inability to delegate and I think this is the whole you know they end up.
Doing all the important what because they feel that they need to be in this may be seen to be.
Messina roll NFL have to take on the important tasks I think that’s everyone that’s what kind of cup little bit already,
I think the second one is really maybe around things like time management say you know I think it’s really hard for developers who I used to maybe,
getting into the flavors I have a good environment settling in this United lots of competing directions the United this people asking them about,
how to solve this problem so you know who do I talk to about this kind of problem or,
you know the external kind of side of maybe having to talk with other teams that you’ve dependencies on all you need what from old maybe you’re getting pulled away into Sochi trip planning,
and then you’re also expected to code and also to think about maybe big ass at a technical problems make sure that you can manage.
Yeah I system architecture in technical debt so I think for a lot of people when I get turned into that you know it’s not like everyone goes through really good time management closest when they start what can it gets rested and that’s a bit of a shock for people.
Christian:
[23:54] Then you mentioned I think I’m going if your articles your talks about time management definitely being an issue and you can it helps a little bit with.
Time boxing or counter blocking but it is open environments where people just can come over and tap you on the shoulder your how do you help with that.
Patrick Kua:
[24:11] Yeah I seen it a couple of different things for that sorry I was actually working recently with the tight lead and he has a sign that says you know you do not disturb I’m thinking,
what kind of sign,
you know sometimes used to physical torquing like a hot till something to indicate that’s the signal that actually I’m kind of into the deep thinking mind I guess also it’s just easier to sometimes move away from the team I think those.
Guilt apps that comes to that which is you know.
Not with the team and I’m not doing something that I actually I think for a lot of people that’s that mistake hope you know your thinking time and how you feel time strategically is actually value-add.
And then people maybe once I understand that it’s okay they can actually think about I can come out the time and maybe I can go sit somewhere quiet you know sometimes it’s just booked a room and disappear or go your sit in a corner or physical area I think just getting out of that space as useful to think about,
you’re in time.
Christian:
[25:08] Absolutely absolutely have said of work from home policy or two and you get a lot of feedback that you know the people that days the people work from home they they’re actually productivity from a coding standpoint tends to definitely.
Patrick Kua:
[25:18] Ellis Grey.
Christian:
[25:20] No
So what are the things about all of this Improvement in first-time Energon you going to these these companies can you quantify the improvements that that you had seen when you have properly educated Tech leadership right is there.
Is there improve morale is a project delivery happen quicker can you actually tangibly see these differences.
Patrick Kua:
[25:42] I think it’s a good question because,
how do you think you can necessarily quantitatively I mean I guess you can quantitatively by doing surveys and things like that but a little tight still very subjective,
show me I see this as a risk management forgan ization so I think the problems with pull tight leadership.
End up being I’m whole bunch of risks that can I get to food and amplify overtime so I think some of the effects of of what you often see what you have with the.
Leadership would hopefully be as he said,
team morale and actually a Kiki’s of team and I think that means that actually friends since that developers can argue about debate about particular topics but also I find a way to move forward and not just implicit,
Tula United States to get sulky and then you end up with three different ways of implementing Sony in the code base.
I think that’s something we’ll so about making sure that you know as people,
working that they also find a way to technically grow so they learn different approaches they see that’s what the grace so you get that stuff I guess.
Most senior isms in the team and hopefully you end up with more techneeds architects in the future because everyone has to develop too long list of careers and that helps you will get a stationary for I guess from a perspective I also hope that that means actually you end up stairs,
delivering systems consistently,
whiskey quality and at a good Pace that should have the business rather than all of a sudden going on a oldest technical that has built up and now we can’t do anything because it’s just become really off.
[27:20] I’m always furthest over into production and it doesn’t scale or to the performer it’s not secure they could somebody has forgotten to maybe think about these equality attribute to the system that you needed to really designful.
Christian:
[27:32] And when you doing these concealed things have you seen an increase in people being concerned and wanting to support actually concept of helping to train unitech leaders.
Patrick Kua:
[27:43] Yeah definitely you know I think once particular maybe other levels of management really understand what the role is there really keen on actually trying to understand how they can actually support people.
In that role because I’ve realized that actually and I have not been doing anything to help them and it’s all bunch of skills I have to actually develop so I guess some of the actions that I’ve seen so many people take is actually a maybe investment in a bit more of the.
So the leadership skills social skills perhaps around people how communicate to resolve conflict.
Sometimes it’s out just dedicated time to allow that person will maybe an electric company for those rolls get together so I encourage.
Locations to do what I,
kind of cool that maybe take lunches or technique Huddle’s where in the people who Solo in these projects might get together and then talk about Italy issues in that role,
the other people that might be facing and I consider swap ideas about how they would actually sell that in that environment,
so you’re so disappointing that whack the angelcy investment in I guess books and reading around this day area cuz this quite a lot around this area.
Christian:
[28:52] Sure anything off the top of your head that you would recommend.
Patrick Kua:
[28:55] Oh yeah so I definitely like the I think it’s leading snowflakes which is a bit more to the entering management but I think that’s really useful as well.
Christian:
[29:08] He also puts a great weekly email Digest.
Links from the management and Engineering Management for every week if it if you sign up I’ll try to put in the show notes for people I’ll dig it up and find it but it’s definitely good. Only good book as you mentioned but it’s also it’s a good week we should have a male digestive of links.
Patrick Kua:
[29:26] Yeah it’s a great resource for most of the system architecture perspective I’m in a big fan of continuous delivery and I think.
You know how people understand how you octech systems full continue slavery is really key in today’s ever-changing environment,
and I really like something brown sofa octet show for sulfur developers so you know I kind of mentioned before how little people as developed as a giant really think about this octet rule and actually does something about.
Everyone really should think like an architect essay writing software but this so much stuff and I understood that it kind of gets the golden about and I think that’s something that leads can definitely.
Benefit from but also teaching other developers to think like an octet as well.
Christian:
[30:08] Sure great not one of the things I think you mentioned as well to the importance of having a mentor right and so how do you go about if if your new tech lead how do you go about finding you know finding a mentor to help you.
Patrick Kua:
[30:21] I would hope so in Logan ization which a lot of people work in those maybe somebody that can look up to who’s maybe being on that path before,
that’s United look likely to to find people that like that can help you not to the role I think definitely even you don’t.
To be a mental some of those people don’t even necessarily need to be that or not roll I think just a coach even other types of meninges can actually help bounce,
the approaches of Sir they went in early be able to help out with maybe some of the technical side to maybe some the system architecture but definitely around the people maybe,
resulting in a technical conflict between couple of developers about how you met virtual how you might.
Communicates a technical concept to business people that you might get more investment to invest in particular technical projects United some of those other roles in an organization would be really,
useful that is a creature not to roll and what I would actually say is that it’s with,
experimenting to find a couple of different people because I think you’ll end up with a difference in a relationship with some of them for different things so you’re somebody who’s like that lead who maybe focus on system architecture maybe somebody who’s like a bit more in the people,
and then that gives you different places to go to talk about different trophic.
Christian:
[31:40] Great great suppose your brand new tech lead you new to the role what are the top one or two things that you would recommend that they do write up.
Patrick Kua:
[31:49] Yes a first thing I would say is do you know what your can you could you articulate your technical Fusion as an elevator pitch so you’re I’m amazed how many people lives developers Karachi culate details about the crate system.
But if they would try to summarize what they trying to build and what that looks like that’s really difficult so you know.
If you don’t have that technical figure then it’s hard to get people to leave soda.
News to what’s that Vision say I’d say think about the elevator pitch for the system what type of system will building what are the characteristics of it how does it differ how does it make people excited to Anahuac on that,
and you know how come people contribute towards that technical vision and the other one that I would have Jeffrey,
encourage people to do is definitely stop reading about people as a developer all the books you’ve read or probably all very based around some software problems technical things for factoring patents and.
It’s unlikely that 11 Thriller please tend to read a lot of people,
books and I would say start receiving a lot of those and adding to your reading list because you know that skills in the rain as a developing probably not explicitly practice them and as a tightly.
Your success is really dependent on being effective at developing my skills.
Christian:
[33:08] Yeah definitely and I really want to go back to the first point you made about really having that vision and not just having it but communicating it out because everyone talks about recruiting and hiring,
and if you can really sell that that Vision to somebody who,
either they’re potentially new employer your company and interviewing to come on and get them excited about that roll then you know I think that would really help and go long way with them you joining your company or even your team within a company.
Patrick Kua:
[33:34] Yeah I totally agree with you on that you know you really want people to want to Black on that and it makes a big difference in recruiting yeah but it’s in the organization and the team definitely agree.
Christian:
[33:45] Yep so you dismiss comes up a lot of the concept of imposter syndrome right people at the End of the Roll they don’t think they don’t know what they’re doing they can give her an else knows what they’re doing your head any tips.
Patrick Kua:
[33:57] Yeah I would say that it’s a natural place to be when you’re growing somewhere so I think if you were trying something else out for the first time you’re going to be really anxious and you’ll feel like you’re.
Capable leader have the skills ready to do that what I would say is that what you want to do is acknowledge it.
No that is not true power of the Living Grace process and what and find ways to get some feedback from people about how you doing sir you know part of it might be about actually getting feedback from the team about how they perceive you.
I’m a big fan of the 360 degree feedback.
With all team members and also maybe getting some feedback from Independence with the third-party person so it might be.
Trusted colleague another person outside of the team that you trust that,
what considers maybe observe some of the things that you’re doing give you feedback on some of how you’re doing so that you don’t let it grow too long because you know I guess part of the fear of the Imposter syndrome is that you’re going to fail and you know you going to fail you NFL fast so you can actually learn how to adjust your behavior,
and you really need to Crate that feedback sleep for you pretty quickly.
Christian:
[35:11] And I think another thing to is to realize that you’re not alone in that and you’re not think that leads me to to bring up really quickly a book that you’ve you’ve kind of written and compiled called talking with tech leads and I think that’s also another good book 2.
To have said of new and potentially struggling tech leads to understand and read that the other people have gone through this they’re going through this and they’re.
Patrick Kua:
[35:32] Yeah,
that’s a really great point I don’t thank you for the Segway yeah I was really funny cuz I think is really different when they step into this role and when you bring different strengths to it so people will struggle with different elements to it because in a some people will naturally be maybe a little bit better with some people skills some people that should be better at maybe this pic a picture of tentacle-vision different struggles with different elements of an you right,
you know the so many people that have been on this path and said that means actually that’s all bunch of people you can talk to that have already been on this journey and maybe how the coat.
Christian:
[36:06] What was the biggest takeaway from that whole process of talking to the people compiling the book and then publishing.
Patrick Kua:
[36:13] I love the variety of the responses say in the book even though that was kind of a sad instead of questions was really interesting to see how people,
answers to questions when I said a person and and I for me it really just highlighted the real value instead of.
Appreciating diversity so I didn’t really expect the same ances and I got really quite different answers from some of the questions so I was really surprised by that.
Christian:
[36:42] Exit certainly one of it’s one of the ways that I actually found you two going to be on the show I had.
Got in your book and giving it to you you know one of my tech leads and then they’d greatly enjoyed it so and I do recommend it on my listens out here that if you are a tech lead or if you’re a manager or VP of engineering somewhere it certainly I think I could booktube.
Had to sit at everything you give to do some of those members of your team so thank you for.
Patrick Kua:
[37:06] Yeah thank you thank you for the regulation.
Christian:
[37:08] That any any kind of last recommendations to people out here who might be thinking about stepping into the role or.
Patrick Kua:
[37:16] Yeah absolutely I think it’s really interesting cuz it’s some developers when they hear about what the role entails they shy away from it and I think part of it is sometimes people identify themselves as writing.
and what I would say for little people who will may be thinking about this role is that you will end up doing a little bit Liskeard,
but it also means that actually you can actually build a system,
much better than what you would be now that you will learn so what you end up doing stuff into this role is to lead a team develop his so I think her rather than so you creating the whole system,
you’re actually watching throughout the people to cut the system that you’d like to have a not so much bigger in person when you can actually have and in that sell fits with Fuller in this role.
Christian:
[38:01] Yep a fantastic Patrick what’s the best way to find.
Patrick Kua:
[38:04] So you can find me online on Twitch it’s at Petco and my website which is ww.w.
Christian:
[38:16] Well perfect soup and every listener in the podcast here I will definitely put that on my show notes which you can get to it simple leadership. IO I’ll have some of the links that we of the books we’ve talked about.
I’ll definitely put the links to Patrick’s Twitter and website handles there in line so thank you very much Patrick for coming on the show today definitely appreciate it and I think it’s been very insightful and our leaders will start.
Listeners will.
Patrick Kua:
[38:41] Yeah things are much I really enjoyed the conversation.
Christian:
[38:45] We’ll have a good evening for you.
Patrick Kua:
[38:47] Thank you and enjoy your holiday.
Christian:
[38:50] I certainly will thank you.
[0:05] Hello Patrick welcome to the show.
Patrick Kua:
[0:07] Hi Kristin thanks for having me on the show.
Christian:
[0:09] Absolutely and where you calling from today patch.
Patrick Kua:
[0:12] I’m based here in London where it’s actually quite funny phone so happy about that.
Christian:
[0:17] Oh excellent I’ll actually be going through London Gatwick airport tomorrow on my way to Holiday which I’m looking forward to.
Patrick Kua:
[0:23] Wonderful I hope you have a good trip and I can connection.
Christian:
[0:27] Yes as well as well it’s a bunch of thank you again for coming on the show wanted to go into a brief.
Bit of your background I normally interview a couple different types of people in the show whether their engineering managers and themselves or participate in the field somehow and you yourself a very interesting background how can you tell me a little.
Patrick Kua:
[0:46] Yeah sure I’m sorry I guess my background is coming from development background where I’ve done so Java Ruby and JavaScript development of systems,
everything from said of back-end services that need to set of scales at Great bass type systems,
set of mobile assitive.
Web-based type systems so all types of development and I typically lead development teams when I’m actually,
building code and I still do that actually and I work as a consultant so that means that it kind of depends on what we need to do for our clients,
at the other end of the spectrum the most of heavy Consulting and advice site is actually working with so ctas VP engineering engineering managers around how they pops.
Builds I guess technical capability as well as if a constant puzzle in it which is how can we deliver more with less how do we scale out of people.
Yeah and that really ties into I guess my passion around undescending technical leadership,
it’s a challenge that we’ve certainly had something that I’ve been trying to address and really sharing a lot of thought about helping developers make that transition into a,
having impact and that’s really about the whole theme around technical leadership to me that I am very passionate about.
Christian:
[2:03] I’ve heard it often heard a saying that code scales but people don’t.
Patrick Kua:
[2:06] That’s pretty messed Frasier.
Christian:
[2:09] How did you get into Tech the vision of Trinity obviously have started from a technical background and continue to do that did you know what was the onus for you to looking around and say wow there’s really does really Gap here.
Patrick Kua:
[2:21] Yeah I guess you know been with my company footworks for 13 years and it’s been interesting cuz I still remember my first time being thrown into a leadership role and it’s quite scary can I have this suddenly a whole well to expectations that has a Chavela that you would never exposed to,
and there’s a lot of pressure booth in leading a team dealing with people and as well as saying technical,
and I guess it came out of a little bit of maybe frustration you know I think what I see with a little organizations as the people team often really try to help people organize training and did not show this to focus on,
people skills leadership skills and I think what was really missing was the kind of context of technical leadership skills within the context of the.
The role that really develop is transitioning into a Glade Road house so I guess out of that frustration I was kind of wanting to,
to solve that problem being a developer when it’s old problems and I guess having spent a lot of time with different types of leaders I felt that I had enough balance of like a knowledge of trying to build something that could help people ease into that transition.
Christian:
[3:30] Sure especially people out of Big Technical backgrounds I think they don’t also get some of that.
Training that if you go to a business degree or you go for a leadership role and other things you don’t have gone through school and had some leadership courses or you might have interned and kinda some management roles but typically that I find.
He is especially with a lot of the managers that I inherit that they didn’t coding for 6 years and Monday morning they come in their manager.
Patrick Kua:
[3:57] Yeah that’s a shock to the system at what does that mean and what do I do.
Christian:
[4:02] Exactly so for you you know what does what does what is the concept of technical leadership mean to you cuz you know there’s a concept of management and Leadership and then to find a little bit for me how that how you think about that.
Patrick Kua:
[4:14] Yeah I guess I prefer the term lead of a manager I think I managed from portion I think organizations need manages and what I really like about the time Lita is.
I think when people see manager they see it as a title and a position and I think we the leader it’s really about an act about taking a leadership,
and I see this all the time with you really passionate Developers,
when a reprieve pop the crate base or you know they want to maybe a job the new technology and I have to convince everyone that to me is a form of leadership,
I guess what I really love about the term Lita is that I believe that anyone can be a later if they really severely passion about something in the can,
bring everyone along with them on that search any I think also in the context of sulfur development where in it’s very rare that people went by themselves these days you,
have to work with teams and other develop is to get things done you know this that whole thing is that you leave people and you manage resources or other things and you can’t really manage people that people,
how people are they don’t like being managed they like the autonomy and having an opinion say to me I guess I really like the idea about.
Leadership and Leadership because it’s really anything anyone can to play that role but also,
I think when people sometimes fall into the management truck they think they need to really just focus on the known technical side and,
and I thinking today so the engineering well that’s really funny because I think the tomaka touch seem so full and a favor people see that as a big Ivory Tower architect.
[5:50] Actually there is something about leading the technical vision and biggest system picture I think a lot of people forget about these days.
And that to me is really a load of the essence of stovetec leadership which is kind of an overlap of I guess General leadership management skills a little bit more experience around Building Systems soda thinking about.
To the system architecture the environment in which software Works parole City abilities for used to write and build code alongside a team and so it’s kind of the overlap of these kind of three areas that I feel is the key to successful Tech leadership.
Christian:
[6:26] And having worked in the industry for so long do you feel that it’s actually harder to be a tech leader than it is to say maybe be leadership in another vertical.
Patrick Kua:
[6:37] It’s really hot actually cuz I guess I haven’t really wanted on the medic.
A little story cuz I have a couple of friends back home in Australia where I grew up and they work in medicine so some good friends from University and one of them was an emergency medical doctor and,
I think they actually have the same problem when you know people silly in the specialist of the field and then that gets ran into a management position and.
You know it’s all the skills that you build up in your vertical and it’s kind of the same experience of Venice Italy what does that actually mean.
Do you do some of those things that you would do in that to the field of medicine or you know the the people and the Savannah station than having to deal with.
People’s individual preferences conflicts your habits and having to find a balance across the organization say I think I actually is quite similar and I think that’s definitely value in field in everybody talking about.
The context of leadership in the challenges in the context of the problems that people would see in that field so for us and Technology I think you know it is this kind of make of us multiply attention,
when you are developing a really focused on some output to what you write and then when you move into a lead of manager role.
You’re really thinking about amplifying that and then you know what does that mean when you’re actually working in the same crate bass right so it’s kind of a slightly different problem than maybe enough.
Medical fields and I think it’s quite interesting cuz I think there are parallels but they’re also differences across reticles.
Christian:
[8:09] And what are the things that you say that you feel is very important as well for being an attack leadership role is to continue to code.
Patrick Kua:
[8:16] Yeah yeah.
Christian:
[8:19] Yeah so tell me about why you don’t because they were different sides of the coin about that right different different opinions on definitely stink technical but you certainly have a kid I think it’s about 30% of the time about you making sure you’re in the code you tell me about that.
Patrick Kua:
[8:33] Yeah I guess it’s me told about to the feedback loops and you know I think one of the biggest things is when people feel that there may be an architect will think about that you know they think their responsibility is about the pic a picture,
and actually you know sometimes the pic a picture is.
Sings of August sets the boundaries and contacts for how decisions get made but you still want to evaluate whether or not that’s the right thing for your actually building,
and I guess it’s really interesting because I was talking to an ox hitch group recently with the clients and,
you know that distinguishing feature was about AQHA Texas at United of the people that make decisions and it’s kind of fastening because developers have to make decisions all the time where to put code,
which libraries are tools that they tore up on an each one of those can actually make the system less scalable or more difficult to change the future,
you know I think it’s quite different from saying the nineties we’re actually when you make a decision,
the landscape doesn’t change so much that’s the timeframe of how long that systems going to be built where is in today’s you know well we have open source technologies that mean that this libraries Galore web Frameworks change all the time in the Travis crippled,
and actually you know the length of how decisions should have lost get shorter and shorter and say everyone gets involved in the decision-making process so that.
Set a criteria for another difference of an ox and develop it makes me different sir I think the meat at Leeds need to be added because they need to understand the implications of the decisions I make.
[10:04] The I guess need to also build an empathy with the developers and twisting agree I think technical people,
it’s all about really respect right so it’s good that you considered maybe tell people what to do will make a decision but you also is a leader responsible for making sure that.
That maybe decision gets lift out and it’s hard to do that unless you have the respect with people,
and I see this all the time when you have people who will make you too far away from the code and the trying to maybe push their own opinion on something and it just doesn’t fit the problem,
an all the developers kind of light roll their eyes and what the heads and yeah will do this thing and then they’re more pragmatic cuz I have to sell the problem and I do what they,
can giving you know that cinnamon tea say yeah.
Christian:
[10:49] How do you work not only with should have individual contributors and first line managers and tech leads but you also mentioned that you also consult with VP of engineering and ciccio’s.
How do you recommend or what’s your thought on as you could further up away from the code to still you know what’s your thought that you’re not into go up to that c211 ring me about VP of engineering level about you know staying in touch with.
Patrick Kua:
[11:13] I guess part of it is so what I really focus on is trying to.
Check me some principles say I think those are the things that really trendsend you know your old types technology stats and then it’s really about finding opportunities when you can’t work with people.
On pots the system so you know might be about actually working with people in production support because actually that’s really.
Place where maybe the decisions that were made will completely wrong and it’s a good feedback Point around may be reviewing octet rule decisions technology choices maybe it’s about actually getting involved in the build-out in creation you systems,
and I think it’s really so that may be working as you said to go up you’re really trying to work a lot closer with maybe.
A list of Hands-On Tech legal system,
light singing developing a system help may be on the stand what are the common problems that you’re trying to have and maybe I can find ways of unblocking that from a technical perspective so some of that might be about.
Facilitating discussions around how do a pi standardized within the organization,
say that there are no surprises across the organization you’re trying to up to my eyes across a broad spectrum and to do that you kind of need to be out to read code on the sun with its difference is,
understand the trade-offs between unit problems at one time maybe having this another,
and then we’ll see I guess trying to reconcile with a whole group about what is a good technical solution and part of that might then be maybe sitting down with different teams doing so,
crib reviews with them technical retrospectives or should a party type thing so I think that’s definitely ways to keep you in touch I didn’t think as you go up you don’t necessarily and they shouldn’t be fixed we Tatian that you are The Grouchy person that can answer the latest questions about.
[12:56] Next Fremont Library tool that’ll never really happen but there’s a lot of wisdom that you can probably bring with no providing context about how systems were built and why,
what is constraints what also hopefully over time you should love to catalog of,
experiences of I’m just setting different types architectural patents everything from the different types of databases that you might use to,
methods of scalability through maybe asynchronous architectures or different types of things that you can sort of maybe help inject knowledge and amplify the effectiveness of teams that don’t really know about them same.
Christian:
[13:32] Yeah definitely and I think it’s very important that you bring back the concept of people really respecting you and understanding you because you don’t want to get into that position which is easy to get into and of stumbling to this a couple times myself,
wondering why you get an estimate back for recert of a story points and why is this so long and you should have questioned them and then they look at you like well you have no idea cuz you haven’t you know.
In the trenches here for this module and is here as your systems growing scale you can’t as sincerely have your foot and every single code base for every single project in and Tina’s going on your come.
Patrick Kua:
[14:06] Yeah yeah.
Christian:
[14:08] But it is important definitely I grew that the other things too I learned the hard way is to not put yourself if you’re going to stay in the code not put yourself in the critical path of of releases.
Patrick Kua:
[14:18] Oh yeah I totally agree with that I think I made that one of the first mistakes first times I was Ted leading and it’s very stressful.
Christian:
[14:25] Yeah it is I think you’re the whole team is all excited and and you’re up at midnight on Sunday to complete your story points because the Sprint closed on Monday morning.
Patrick Kua:
[14:33] Exactly,
how it looks for a find a paper grooming is really great way of doing that say no actually full-time pair programming but actually work when people in light design General approach and then when you go away and you come back hopefully things are probably evolved but at least you’ll know,
surprised by how things are done but the critical Works things went really be blocks then so I find that’s really successful way of maybe being involved important things but not being this at a critical blucky.
Christian:
[15:00] Yeah know that. Definitely that doesn’t make sense.
Go back a little bit to your detect leadership training so you’ve been in the trenches you see this you do this Consulting what.
What are the biggest things that you see when you go into firm or company in and they see what are the gaps typically is our common set of things that people want you to work on that they see as deficiency.
Patrick Kua:
[15:23] Yes I think in general that’s a bit of clarification of the Roll saying I think it was really interesting when I was thinking about the people team about why they couldn’t provide training for developers moving into that role and I think to a lot of people it’s just a mystery about you know you see,
good leads and it’s light well how did they get that nobody really knows what they kind of maybe do,
what skills do they developed actually get the answer for me it’s really about maybe helping organizations with management people team as well as the technical team to understand the shape of that role.
So I think that straight chat help bring Clarity to responsibilities I think you know people go you most senior and therefore you know your leader and you know if she gay,
the dirt really articulate what does elated mean what does that mean in the context development and how should I behave differently from those.
Developers and I think Auntie Pam that I see you which is you know.
Perfectly normal for first-time techneeds is they see themselves as most senior and therefore they need to make all the important decisions.
And that’s really a model that doesn’t scale so out right you know the whole shift in view of your role now is actually about maximizing the potential of all the other developers that you have is quite different from.
You taking all the calls and that’s a huge shift because I think for let it develop his you know they used to solving the problem themselves and getting that cake from a.
And that’s the real challenge I think there’s something about that as a kurta you get this kind of yes it works so no it doesn’t what kind of feedback it’s immediate pretty much.
[16:57] As acid of tech lead you kind of do things and you don’t really know you kind of have to wait to see if it’s going to fit maybe you wanted two weeks later maybe it’s even a month.
And that’s a real struggle for a lot of I think tech leads.
Christian:
[17:11] Yeah and to go back to a point you just made it to the ability to delegate I think is important things that people need to learn as a first-time Tech.
Patrick Kua:
[17:19] Absolutely yeah yeah and I think it’s kind of the spectrum so during the course I couldn’t talk about the situation Leadership Model,
what about how you interact with people in different styles so you everything from maybe being would rectiv I’m actually also unit coaching skills really useful about maybe,
you are trying to guide somebody but not necessarily give them all the answers let them Discover it from the cells as well as I may be working with people and currently collaborating with them.
Solving problem and then finally to use of Delegation which as you know you just making sure that these things are done and fully up to make sure that they too careful it up with.
Christian:
[17:56] Isleta self satisfaction I think when people figure things out for themselves is a coder if you work on a challenge your problem and you figured out there’s a great sense of accomplishment and I think the same thing as true as a management right if someone just walks into tells you how to do it.
You know it’s it’s not as satisfying as guiding them look like a path and they feel that satisfaction really of having help someone along and helping their team grow in the process.
Patrick Kua:
[18:18] Yeah absolutely and I think that’s the struggle of people news that role is recognizing what that difference is because that.
Malaysia tightly is going to give them the answer the bill get the feedback but the person they tell Fiesta to where you get that same sort of reaction.
Christian:
[18:34] I know you mentioned and I want to know if if you use these terms interchangeably write you commonly use the term Tech laid right and there is the specific role of an engineering.
In your mind are they the same or their differences to tell me a little bit about.
Patrick Kua:
[18:51] Yeah I guess it’s interesting when I go to different companies cuz there are different models of how you see this say I think sometimes engineering managers.
Say some engineering managers I’ve talked to has fallen in that role coming from quite a different background so they might be a scrum Master project manager and say the skills and background is it may be more focused on the environment.
Around you know trying to make sure that people have the right.
Computing resources technical dependencies relationships are the teams maybe they were bit more responsible for sale and management,
explicit personal development of all the team at the same time you know,
if they come from the background they can’t really then they didn’t really have the skills to leave the technical vision and architecture so you kind of hope that somebody knows he might do that depending on if you have a bunch of senior people that could play the tetris,
lead role that might happen but sometimes you know I’ve seen problems with the engine room entry comes from the background you have a whole bunch of Junior developers and the system becomes a bit of a mess because you have,
different ways to doing things that snorunt told about what should of scalability requirements LP Wilhelm I be deployed and say that side of it kind of gets dropped.
So when the engineer manager I guess comes from that background what I typically see us at lead ammo draw released,
become necessary which is then that Focus around instead of 10 I guess I’ve also seen places where the engineering manager is that Tech lead.
And I think what happens is that I guess they have all of those responsibilities lead and the engineering manager and sometimes depending on how big the team is and how much stressor is they can be quite overloaded.
[20:32] Say you know trying to do personal development plans Trinity recruiting,
trying to do all these triaging often it’s more time that takes away from actually looking at maybe the technical qualities of the system and also trying to make sure that everyone on this team is growing from a title perspective so the.
Everything from country to different parts of the system equally so I guess it’s a real Consultants or pens,
different models and I guess where I see it most successfully is really this kind of maybe split with ownership with her injury manager may be focusing on environmental Administration,
political side paps to organization depending on how big it is and then Tech lead very much focused on to the system technical version and in some places you know you might have that person that has the skills and experience to be able to do both of them.
Christian:
[21:26] Serta true symbiotic relationship between the tech lead and manager do you think the teams consider scale to be a little larger than if you have that.
Patrick Kua:
[21:35] Yeah definitely so where I’ve seen it what really well I think you can get up to a Teemo say.
[21:42] 12 or 15 developers that way and you know I think for a single person that becomes quite difficult just even doing one-on-ones with people but I think with two people splitting some of that you can do a level.
Christian:
[21:55] Yeah I’ve seen that child that in some of my larger teams here and it worked out exactly as you said it was a person who came up to the engineering manager role that.
Didn’t have is deep of a technical background as some of the people on their team and assertive having that Tech lead under under them really prove to be of every kind of nice working relationship and pear.
[22:18] What did you you see people get promoted you coming to organizations what are some of the most common mistakes that you see new tech leads through this new injury managers make.
Patrick Kua:
[22:30] Siri what level is a lot of them.
Christian:
[22:35] What’s a whole episode.
Patrick Kua:
[22:36] I guess the first one with you talked about earlier with this kind of inability to delegate and I think this is the whole you know they end up.
Doing all the important what because they feel that they need to be in this may be seen to be.
Messina roll NFL have to take on the important tasks I think that’s everyone that’s what kind of cup little bit already,
I think the second one is really maybe around things like time management say you know I think it’s really hard for developers who I used to maybe,
getting into the flavors I have a good environment settling in this United lots of competing directions the United this people asking them about,
how to solve this problem so you know who do I talk to about this kind of problem or,
you know the external kind of side of maybe having to talk with other teams that you’ve dependencies on all you need what from old maybe you’re getting pulled away into Sochi trip planning,
and then you’re also expected to code and also to think about maybe big ass at a technical problems make sure that you can manage.
Yeah I system architecture in technical debt so I think for a lot of people when I get turned into that you know it’s not like everyone goes through really good time management closest when they start what can it gets rested and that’s a bit of a shock for people.
Christian:
[23:54] Then you mentioned I think I’m going if your articles your talks about time management definitely being an issue and you can it helps a little bit with.
Time boxing or counter blocking but it is open environments where people just can come over and tap you on the shoulder your how do you help with that.
Patrick Kua:
[24:11] Yeah I seen it a couple of different things for that sorry I was actually working recently with the tight lead and he has a sign that says you know you do not disturb I’m thinking,
what kind of sign,
you know sometimes used to physical torquing like a hot till something to indicate that’s the signal that actually I’m kind of into the deep thinking mind I guess also it’s just easier to sometimes move away from the team I think those.
Guilt apps that comes to that which is you know.
Not with the team and I’m not doing something that I actually I think for a lot of people that’s that mistake hope you know your thinking time and how you feel time strategically is actually value-add.
And then people maybe once I understand that it’s okay they can actually think about I can come out the time and maybe I can go sit somewhere quiet you know sometimes it’s just booked a room and disappear or go your sit in a corner or physical area I think just getting out of that space as useful to think about,
you’re in time.
Christian:
[25:08] Absolutely absolutely have said of work from home policy or two and you get a lot of feedback that you know the people that days the people work from home they they’re actually productivity from a coding standpoint tends to definitely.
Patrick Kua:
[25:18] Ellis Grey.
Christian:
[25:20] No
So what are the things about all of this Improvement in first-time Energon you going to these these companies can you quantify the improvements that that you had seen when you have properly educated Tech leadership right is there.
Is there improve morale is a project delivery happen quicker can you actually tangibly see these differences.
Patrick Kua:
[25:42] I think it’s a good question because,
how do you think you can necessarily quantitatively I mean I guess you can quantitatively by doing surveys and things like that but a little tight still very subjective,
show me I see this as a risk management forgan ization so I think the problems with pull tight leadership.
End up being I’m whole bunch of risks that can I get to food and amplify overtime so I think some of the effects of of what you often see what you have with the.
Leadership would hopefully be as he said,
team morale and actually a Kiki’s of team and I think that means that actually friends since that developers can argue about debate about particular topics but also I find a way to move forward and not just implicit,
Tula United States to get sulky and then you end up with three different ways of implementing Sony in the code base.
I think that’s something we’ll so about making sure that you know as people,
working that they also find a way to technically grow so they learn different approaches they see that’s what the grace so you get that stuff I guess.
Most senior isms in the team and hopefully you end up with more techneeds architects in the future because everyone has to develop too long list of careers and that helps you will get a stationary for I guess from a perspective I also hope that that means actually you end up stairs,
delivering systems consistently,
whiskey quality and at a good Pace that should have the business rather than all of a sudden going on a oldest technical that has built up and now we can’t do anything because it’s just become really off.
[27:20] I’m always furthest over into production and it doesn’t scale or to the performer it’s not secure they could somebody has forgotten to maybe think about these equality attribute to the system that you needed to really designful.
Christian:
[27:32] And when you doing these concealed things have you seen an increase in people being concerned and wanting to support actually concept of helping to train unitech leaders.
Patrick Kua:
[27:43] Yeah definitely you know I think once particular maybe other levels of management really understand what the role is there really keen on actually trying to understand how they can actually support people.
In that role because I’ve realized that actually and I have not been doing anything to help them and it’s all bunch of skills I have to actually develop so I guess some of the actions that I’ve seen so many people take is actually a maybe investment in a bit more of the.
So the leadership skills social skills perhaps around people how communicate to resolve conflict.
Sometimes it’s out just dedicated time to allow that person will maybe an electric company for those rolls get together so I encourage.
Locations to do what I,
kind of cool that maybe take lunches or technique Huddle’s where in the people who Solo in these projects might get together and then talk about Italy issues in that role,
the other people that might be facing and I consider swap ideas about how they would actually sell that in that environment,
so you’re so disappointing that whack the angelcy investment in I guess books and reading around this day area cuz this quite a lot around this area.
Christian:
[28:52] Sure anything off the top of your head that you would recommend.
Patrick Kua:
[28:55] Oh yeah so I definitely like the I think it’s leading snowflakes which is a bit more to the entering management but I think that’s really useful as well.
Christian:
[29:08] He also puts a great weekly email Digest.
Links from the management and Engineering Management for every week if it if you sign up I’ll try to put in the show notes for people I’ll dig it up and find it but it’s definitely good. Only good book as you mentioned but it’s also it’s a good week we should have a male digestive of links.
Patrick Kua:
[29:26] Yeah it’s a great resource for most of the system architecture perspective I’m in a big fan of continuous delivery and I think.
You know how people understand how you octech systems full continue slavery is really key in today’s ever-changing environment,
and I really like something brown sofa octet show for sulfur developers so you know I kind of mentioned before how little people as developed as a giant really think about this octet rule and actually does something about.
Everyone really should think like an architect essay writing software but this so much stuff and I understood that it kind of gets the golden about and I think that’s something that leads can definitely.
Benefit from but also teaching other developers to think like an octet as well.
Christian:
[30:08] Sure great not one of the things I think you mentioned as well to the importance of having a mentor right and so how do you go about if if your new tech lead how do you go about finding you know finding a mentor to help you.
Patrick Kua:
[30:21] I would hope so in Logan ization which a lot of people work in those maybe somebody that can look up to who’s maybe being on that path before,
that’s United look likely to to find people that like that can help you not to the role I think definitely even you don’t.
To be a mental some of those people don’t even necessarily need to be that or not roll I think just a coach even other types of meninges can actually help bounce,
the approaches of Sir they went in early be able to help out with maybe some of the technical side to maybe some the system architecture but definitely around the people maybe,
resulting in a technical conflict between couple of developers about how you met virtual how you might.
Communicates a technical concept to business people that you might get more investment to invest in particular technical projects United some of those other roles in an organization would be really,
useful that is a creature not to roll and what I would actually say is that it’s with,
experimenting to find a couple of different people because I think you’ll end up with a difference in a relationship with some of them for different things so you’re somebody who’s like that lead who maybe focus on system architecture maybe somebody who’s like a bit more in the people,
and then that gives you different places to go to talk about different trophic.
Christian:
[31:40] Great great suppose your brand new tech lead you new to the role what are the top one or two things that you would recommend that they do write up.
Patrick Kua:
[31:49] Yes a first thing I would say is do you know what your can you could you articulate your technical Fusion as an elevator pitch so you’re I’m amazed how many people lives developers Karachi culate details about the crate system.
But if they would try to summarize what they trying to build and what that looks like that’s really difficult so you know.
If you don’t have that technical figure then it’s hard to get people to leave soda.
News to what’s that Vision say I’d say think about the elevator pitch for the system what type of system will building what are the characteristics of it how does it differ how does it make people excited to Anahuac on that,
and you know how come people contribute towards that technical vision and the other one that I would have Jeffrey,
encourage people to do is definitely stop reading about people as a developer all the books you’ve read or probably all very based around some software problems technical things for factoring patents and.
It’s unlikely that 11 Thriller please tend to read a lot of people,
books and I would say start receiving a lot of those and adding to your reading list because you know that skills in the rain as a developing probably not explicitly practice them and as a tightly.
Your success is really dependent on being effective at developing my skills.
Christian:
[33:08] Yeah definitely and I really want to go back to the first point you made about really having that vision and not just having it but communicating it out because everyone talks about recruiting and hiring,
and if you can really sell that that Vision to somebody who,
either they’re potentially new employer your company and interviewing to come on and get them excited about that roll then you know I think that would really help and go long way with them you joining your company or even your team within a company.
Patrick Kua:
[33:34] Yeah I totally agree with you on that you know you really want people to want to Black on that and it makes a big difference in recruiting yeah but it’s in the organization and the team definitely agree.
Christian:
[33:45] Yep so you dismiss comes up a lot of the concept of imposter syndrome right people at the End of the Roll they don’t think they don’t know what they’re doing they can give her an else knows what they’re doing your head any tips.
Patrick Kua:
[33:57] Yeah I would say that it’s a natural place to be when you’re growing somewhere so I think if you were trying something else out for the first time you’re going to be really anxious and you’ll feel like you’re.
Capable leader have the skills ready to do that what I would say is that what you want to do is acknowledge it.
No that is not true power of the Living Grace process and what and find ways to get some feedback from people about how you doing sir you know part of it might be about actually getting feedback from the team about how they perceive you.
I’m a big fan of the 360 degree feedback.
With all team members and also maybe getting some feedback from Independence with the third-party person so it might be.
Trusted colleague another person outside of the team that you trust that,
what considers maybe observe some of the things that you’re doing give you feedback on some of how you’re doing so that you don’t let it grow too long because you know I guess part of the fear of the Imposter syndrome is that you’re going to fail and you know you going to fail you NFL fast so you can actually learn how to adjust your behavior,
and you really need to Crate that feedback sleep for you pretty quickly.
Christian:
[35:11] And I think another thing to is to realize that you’re not alone in that and you’re not think that leads me to to bring up really quickly a book that you’ve you’ve kind of written and compiled called talking with tech leads and I think that’s also another good book 2.
To have said of new and potentially struggling tech leads to understand and read that the other people have gone through this they’re going through this and they’re.
Patrick Kua:
[35:32] Yeah,
that’s a really great point I don’t thank you for the Segway yeah I was really funny cuz I think is really different when they step into this role and when you bring different strengths to it so people will struggle with different elements to it because in a some people will naturally be maybe a little bit better with some people skills some people that should be better at maybe this pic a picture of tentacle-vision different struggles with different elements of an you right,
you know the so many people that have been on this path and said that means actually that’s all bunch of people you can talk to that have already been on this journey and maybe how the coat.
Christian:
[36:06] What was the biggest takeaway from that whole process of talking to the people compiling the book and then publishing.
Patrick Kua:
[36:13] I love the variety of the responses say in the book even though that was kind of a sad instead of questions was really interesting to see how people,
answers to questions when I said a person and and I for me it really just highlighted the real value instead of.
Appreciating diversity so I didn’t really expect the same ances and I got really quite different answers from some of the questions so I was really surprised by that.
Christian:
[36:42] Exit certainly one of it’s one of the ways that I actually found you two going to be on the show I had.
Got in your book and giving it to you you know one of my tech leads and then they’d greatly enjoyed it so and I do recommend it on my listens out here that if you are a tech lead or if you’re a manager or VP of engineering somewhere it certainly I think I could booktube.
Had to sit at everything you give to do some of those members of your team so thank you for.
Patrick Kua:
[37:06] Yeah thank you thank you for the regulation.
Christian:
[37:08] That any any kind of last recommendations to people out here who might be thinking about stepping into the role or.
Patrick Kua:
[37:16] Yeah absolutely I think it’s really interesting cuz it’s some developers when they hear about what the role entails they shy away from it and I think part of it is sometimes people identify themselves as writing.
and what I would say for little people who will may be thinking about this role is that you will end up doing a little bit Liskeard,
but it also means that actually you can actually build a system,
much better than what you would be now that you will learn so what you end up doing stuff into this role is to lead a team develop his so I think her rather than so you creating the whole system,
you’re actually watching throughout the people to cut the system that you’d like to have a not so much bigger in person when you can actually have and in that sell fits with Fuller in this role.
Christian:
[38:01] Yep a fantastic Patrick what’s the best way to find.
Patrick Kua:
[38:04] So you can find me online on Twitch it’s at Petco and my website which is ww.w.
Christian:
[38:16] Well perfect soup and every listener in the podcast here I will definitely put that on my show notes which you can get to it simple leadership. IO I’ll have some of the links that we of the books we’ve talked about.
I’ll definitely put the links to Patrick’s Twitter and website handles there in line so thank you very much Patrick for coming on the show today definitely appreciate it and I think it’s been very insightful and our leaders will start.
Listeners will.
Patrick Kua:
[38:41] Yeah things are much I really enjoyed the conversation.
Christian:
[38:45] We’ll have a good evening for you.
Patrick Kua:
[38:47] Thank you and enjoy your holiday.
Christian:
[38:50] I certainly will thank you.