Michelle is a Senior Backend Engineer at ChowNow, helping local restaurants grow their business by strengthening relationships with their customers. She has previously served as both an engineer and a manager for the last 7+ years in entertainment technology. She has worked tirelessly to help movies and television get made faster and cheaper, saving productions millions of dollars. A Philadelphia native, she has a background in Media Arts and is a self-taught Python developer. Michelle is now working to give back to her community through mentorship and conference speaking.
[0:02] Good afternoon Michelle welcome to the show.
[0:04] Thank you for having me.
[0:06] No absolutely and I where you calling from today.
[0:09] Call if I miss any Los Angeles.
[0:11] Oh excellent so just a bit South from here and I’m calling in from San Francisco I was just closer to your way I was in Santa Barbara over the weekend force of a sports tournament in the weather was fantastic.
No one of the things Michelle that I like to ask a lot of my guests is just a little bit you introduce yourself to them to my audience a little bit of a background kind of how you got to where you are today just kind of the highlight reel.
[0:40] Sure so about 8 years ago I moved to Los Angeles to start my first tech job it was at a visual effects company called image Works where I got to combine
my love of Art and Technology I’ve always been fascinated with how it was making entertainment and the 3D Realm
and it allowed me to continue is my you know childhood love is cartoons so I got to work on
a bunch of animated and feature films as a support engineer and that was a lot of fun.
Find other couple years ago that I actually took kind of a
step back to an individual contributor because while I really enjoyed managing and you I want to do it long term all the technology I use an image of actress more internal tools so they were less transferable Tech skills,
see if I get a job in web development and kind of work my way out in that pass and become you know senior engineer,
it was about man now I’m kind of going back on the path towards manager.
[1:50] How do you feel that having been a manager before did I help you at all as it in your icy route as he kind of got into web development.
[2:01] I definitely has especially since I had a really amazing mentor and help me when I start to have,
less effective process and I can think about ways to manage up and kind of guide my own path without having a lot of direction from above.
[2:17] Sure absolutely and to the circle back a little bit what prompted you to get in to you to say you were taking on more responsibility was there was there anything specific that put you into that manager role can a prior to going back into an Icee.
[2:31] The funny thing is when I started I was like oh I definitely want to be a manager I just want to be a technical artist I was going to do great things and then along I worked in the team
and my manager has give me more and more leadership task Tennessee more natural and then once I was managing a team I realized,
what a great feeling it was to create more that I could as an individual contributor like it was so neat making bigger and bigger impact.
So that’s I really enjoyed that and I’m not go now that’s the path I know I want to be on.
[3:03] Sure and I think a lot of people say they do realize that and then a pack of becoming a manager is less about hey I want to be the boss I want to call the shots or I want to manage people
and it is more about.
That your you can be a force multiplier like you can see the impact that you have spread not only do what you can do with your own two hands but how you can help to effectively manage a team to produce more than you ever could by yourself.
Along the way to an Asus of all of the guests on my show any any mistakes that you might have made when you kind of went step to that manager path that you look back now instead of cringe on.
[3:39] Absolutely actually the first time I became a manager I was put on this new team and the you know my grandpa’s Baisley the client that I was working for,
did not want me as a lead but there was nobody else available and my boss is really wanted me to get.
That leadership experience so there are there are two kind of against me to begin with and then it was a much smaller budget than previous Productions of use at a really small team and I feel like all this pressure to get things done,
I did one of the things that you a lot of early managers do is try to get more done than was possible I work really long hours and after 1 like really late night I can’t learn,
anything I was making you know past 11 hours just terrible.
Wake me at [11:12] at night the next morning I came in at 9 and realize I made a ton of mistakes even though I tried really hard to,
get done and that was you know one of the few of her mistakes I’ve made I actually got put on manager probation which I have.
Don’t know anyone else who had this.
Why is is didn’t trust me so they wanted a seasoned manager cc’d on all my emails to make sure I was doing things right.
[4:57] It was a pretty tough blow to my ego and I was pretty sad but I used it as an opportunity to grow their trust because I think,
what time is it didn’t know me I was such an unknown quantity 10 things you do right as always outweighed by the one thing she did wrong.
[5:15] So I tried to be a lot more transparent and also a lot more accurate my estimations if something was going to get done in normal business hours it just wasn’t going to get done till next day and the first one has to weigh.
[5:28] Yeah I think that’s a lot of you know especially in Silicon Valley and then in this in this startup phase you always hear these Hero Stories of people who you know sleep on the floor and they work 18 hours a day but really I think
what happens is it’s just that you said that you might get something out.
But what expense decided the personal cost of the individual the morale the burnout and most likely what you’re putting out at that point this is really not very good are you going to have to go back and fix it anyway so you might as well do it when you’re rested,
and you have to go back and fix mistakes.
[6:01] Yes exactly.
[6:02] Is you talk to other people and you’ve given some talks you had this management experience your went back to an icy and then you’re going back into management.
What eat what would you recommend any tips for any first-time managers kind of going into it if they could plan for it what would you advise him.
[6:22] I think that two big things that I’ve seen over and over is micromanaging and not allowing your individual contributors to shine,
I want to think of it as if you’re not going to trust them to do their job and sells why you didn’t take them.
[6:38] Why’d you hire them in the first place.
[6:40] Yeah exactly I seen it like cross-discipline things were the manager was very unsure and would micromanaged you know,
team member who skills they didn’t even have just because they were so nervous about being a new manager and then also.
What I said before which is learn to say no and stand your ground because once you start saying yes to everything you’ll never.
Satisfy the demands will always be getting things done late and I’ll always be unreasonable and you’ll never make anyone happy and if you just say no to begin with,
no they might be unhappy but at least they won’t be unhappy for months at a time will be unhappy once and then get a good product in there.
[7:25] I really agree with that one part you said about just saying no it was actually one of the,
what are the points I made in it in a conference I spoke out over the summer was you know you just have to say no and
and it’s not necessary like being a three-year-old and stomping your feet and saying no but you know you can say no and lots of other ways that will know I can’t really do this right now or I’ll be happy to help you
it what that can you help me reprioritize what can we work on differently right so but it’s just not about always saying yes and we get to a point where.
Some things you know things have to be in or right they can’t just be another Aunt you have to say okay I can do this or that but I can’t do both and otherwise you burn yourself out and then,
people look at you because once you accept something,
people trust and that you’re going to do it and if you’ve taken onto too much you can’t do all the things and then you’ll a road that trust that is really important in relationships and businesses.
[8:22] Exactly and it’s no it’s not always a straight no it’s a no
but you know what you know but if you don’t you give me two more Engineers we can get this done a week faster like if you can cut and negotiate and say what your your blockers are sometimes you can just throw money at the problem sometimes they want something so badly though just raise your budget.
[8:41] Well that’s right that’s the other that’s either I’ll come right after you show them set of facts and evidence that you can’t do two things at once that’s usually a great tool that I used to and I’m dealing with executive teens or boards,
if you want both done.
I just can’t do it with the current resources right but I can’t do it and maybe that’s it that’s the thing wrong well it’s worth us to invest more money or give you more team members or consultant whatever is to get that done right so that’s another great to only Arsenal’s manager.
I seen your on your website to that you’ve done a number of public speaking kind of what got you into that like how did you get into into giving some of the talk so you do.
[9:24] So is actually almost a year ago I got an email from the Grace Hopper conference that I signed up for just to go get information about it cuz it seem like such a cool conference or they said are you interested in speaking
do you want to submit for it and I just looked at that and I was like you know what I think I seen him at that point like I don’t know if I’m ready for Grace Hopper yet but I think.
Yeah that’s a big one.
[9:47] Yes it is that’s awesome I would have been like hell yeah.
[9:50] And I was just like I think this is the next of my career I really like,
going to meet us and talking to people and kind of informal groups and the more I thought about it the more I was like yeah I really like it was a bunch of people looking at me and just listening to me talk,
I knew that there was plenty of things that I experienced that maybe other people have been especially going from a great manager so let’s great managers to know really,
traditional technology jobs and then less traditional working in entertainment for so long there’s a lot of different things that I think people kind of enjoy those stories in the process and I help people,
short circuit some of the issues I’ve had.
[10:35] Awesome and how did you.
A lot of people I think whether it’s they need some confidence right they need that Mi ready yet and most people think know but I think it’s important to go out and take that chance anyway and it what was that,
how are you how did you decide to then give that first talk thank you know what would have that go through a few and then had a chip repair.
[11:00] I will say the first to talk to a lot longer to write than subsequent dogs cuz I kind of agonize over the wording like what is now the most impact what makes the most sense so went to a lot of iteration
and then part of it was reading books like in a brown talks a lot about vulnerability and how it makes you grow and once I started you know I started seeing like small groups that meet up some things like that and then,
I decided to just go for it I wanted that feeling of fear I realize that it was similar to when I started a new job where they haven’t even text back or totally different.
Product and how much I really enjoy that like I always enjoy starting job where I don’t know mostly what’s going on cuz then it it helps you grow,
and then you know if I like that so much maybe I like doing activities like speaking or I don’t have a ton of experience on it I can kind of.
Help me grow as a person and then more have done the more I realize how somewhere that is and how much I really enjoy dressing that way.
That’s not what time matches my my daily did it a testicle stretching it’s just in a totally different area so it makes it even more.
[12:13] Would you consider yourself more of an introvert or extrovert.
[12:17] I definitely an extrovert.
[12:19] Okay okay it’s so sometimes that especially for a lot of people Integrity sometimes are introverted the idea of getting up in front of.
Well even in front of say if they have to give a presentation from their team which might be 8 people,
bright terrified some to have any tips for four people that may be listening where they’re going they’re not in their head going oh my God I could never get up in front of a thing to speak yo any guides guidance for them to take the first step in and embrace it.
[12:47] Absolutely a part of what I did in the past year was go see as many talks that could be kind of feel out what work well what didn’t work so I definitely suggest just go to Converses and sit and listen to other people talk,
washing on YouTube in person is definitely better cuz then you can kind of see how the audience reacting each for the story and that really helped.
Also I like to think about how the audience is really on your side is sometimes something goes wrong by you can forget what you were saying the,
contagion itself and have technical issues but most of the time no I’m not upset for,
play more like upset oh no I was going to happen I hope things going to be okay I’ll give you a call that the audience can anyone help me with my laptop,
probably come up like they’re on your side and it’s hard to remember when you’re looking to see if Aces one more thing,
it’s really helpful is find a friendly face and kind of focus on that so if you find someone who’s like nodding,
it feels really good it feels like oh somebody gets what I’m saying and it is like stay with that person cuz they’re your friendly face so if you can,
even like see the audience of friends and tell them please not alone I think it really helped.
[14:07] Yeah that’s such a good point I think you know these people want you to succeed try the audience wants you to succeed like you said and in fact some of them have been in your shoes or their want to be in your shoes and especially instead of Tech Community,
there’s not a lot it’s a natural-born Tony Robbins sort of types of people in that field so I think they root for you and and I,
I’ve been even some recent conferences have been at work some of the most nervous people,
right I mean take it the loudest plazas like people are on their side and then you can kind of see them warming up and then they do such a lot better job but I mean that that’s been such a great point right no one wants you to fail.
[14:48] Exactly and we’re actually it’s better than not be Tony Robbins cuz Tony Robbins more of a salesperson speaker he’s truck,
when does Ashley one of the first mistakes I made it with my presentation I showed the notes to a friend and he was like why you trying to sell this to me like I don’t want to hear yourself but I want to hear the story,
so you think it was more here’s a theater and I’m doing a little bit of a monologue it help connect with people better.
[15:16] So you also just said a really really good point which is you showed your nose to somebody and,
it’s invaluable for me to.
Getfeedback whether it’s at the note stage or where they’re at I want to give a dry or dry run to small group or some people on my team,
mendicant really help you,
going to get through your nerves help you practice and point out a couple things that you know if you’re very unique kind of stepping out of yourself that they can give you a thing that and who wouldn’t want to get that feedback before they’re on the stage in front of Hunter Hunter.
[15:53] Absolutely that actually leaves into this great advice I heard I was actually a panel of women Founders they ask what.
How do you find people to help you out when you’re starting out there’s just so much work that needs to be done you can always pay for it,
and they said ask everyone you know for help and if they can help you with someone else they know might so basically when I want,
someone to like read of our presentation or have time to listen to me speak I just asked like 40 people and then maybe like one or two of them has time for me but that’s really all you need.
And people really feel like helping like I like helping other people call out so it’s just a nice thing to do all around.
[16:37] Yeah the perfect and you’re the Segways a little bit into some of the the discussion topics going to talk about today with you,
is you have a talk called creating a triple A team.
So tell me a little bit what’s what’s going to be the background for that why did you write this and then we can kind of get into a little bit of this kind of the details about the talk to you again.
[17:00] Sure so the inspiration for this was what is something I’ve experienced.
And I see is like a really great when that I don’t haven’t seen him in other places so it’s my first job and imageworks and my manager had this amazing.
Two said that she used to turn all of us Junior entry-level team members into the best people that company,
so every year 25% of the people in this group or promoted their concert receive any awards they were the most loyal people to the company,
and she didn’t have to hire any senior she would just hire Juniors and.
Train them up and kind of creature culture the whole company cuz you know since so many who are getting promoted they can a spread throughout the company and,
inside to the entire culture and it was just a really amazing thing to see and be a part of it and I’ve heard of other you know.
Other stories like I know that Google did a little like this for there a technical project managers and it really worked out for them and I was like wow.
I only see this is very few places so let me talk about it and see if I can bring this to work.
[18:17] Cool so again title The Talk is creating AAA team and before we kind of get into it I think this is a talk that you you actually prepared to give out of the companies or what. Is that correct.
[18:32] Yeah, Deez meet up conferences even different versions of it that sort of thing.
[18:38] Let’s start off with the first part of that talk right it’s the importance of grooming entry-level employees so why is that important like how did how do you harvest at and why is that such an awesome.
[18:50] The big thing is that when you’re a lot of companies will only look for senior engineers and the market is so hot that is hard to find,
barrier of getting people in the door and if you’re only waiting for seniors near as it could take you months and in that time you could have your pick of the best.
Junior Engineers with great potential and I’ve trained them up and now to spend all that money in your senior in in years and buy only hiring seniors you’re getting.
Did culture from whatever last like three companies they worked at all kind of in a mishmash and you don’t know what happens they have there could be a lot of clashing he’s like that,
so of course it’s great to have someone experience especially to mention the new people.
Hiring Juniors you can teach them is it exactly how we do things and how we treat each other this is the style we want to use the process we want to use
and teach them how to do things the way you like them and I try to create the culture in the bottom up instead of having to.
I learn things as well as.
[19:55] I think it’s II
super agree with the value of soda entry-level employees recent College grads at people even better processing Industries and maybe non-traditional backgrounds you and I think it’s there’s tremendous opportunity there.
As long as your setup for I think I’ve also seen it in a place where the company can file the that person if they don’t have an appropriate
Placer privet way guide them in coach them and Mentor them and have a process for helping them achieve themselves or the Chiefs success.
[20:27] Exactly and it all started with the training program that was very formalize and was constantly being,
I seen it so when I started the first two weeks was just boot camp you weren’t given any real assignment you were just giving.
11 homework and as you know just like school.
Learn a couple different things one as you learn the system and then all the internal tools and kind of what was expected of you you learn to work with your cohorts and they’re offering hiring two or three people the same time I’m so kind of bonded you together.
I also just kind of how it’s it’s learning to learn and how to constantly be figuring things out.
That you should.
Need a couple of rolls when was you know when you get a problem for us to look in the documentation which was very well done and and always being updated and then if you spent 15 minutes on something and you can’t figure it out,
go ask someone for help I think a lot of people especially nubius and got to get lost in the weeds and feel embarrassed to,
October how afraid they might like be like oh why you wasting my time what’s going on,
that’s the culture if the 15-minute rule that everyone is going to ask you for help at all time and helps everyone go together or not you know how those feelings of Shame.
[21:53] Yeah no definitely and how do you how important you think it is to have that cohort of us it appears going through an onboarding at the same time.
[22:03] He is very helpful because know you’re all kind of at the same level so if.
One person doesn’t know what the other person you know has more like background knowledge you can help each other without,
had to resort to asking to your manager you so that could be your first step and it’s always up to always a lot easier to ask your peers than it is to ask,
a senior engineer or manager so just have him to go together and then Chris at like bonds of friendship like you went through.
You know it’s like the is called a boot camp it’s like just like the military you you go through this trender a stressful thing together where it’s okay it’s my first tech job I don’t really know anything I’m trying so hard to prove myself.
And you do it with these new friends and then as you start working together even if you’re on different projects you always have those people to go back to him like I remember this let’s ask each other questions and kind of cross-pollinate.
[23:02] Sure and then you talk about the Three A’s as part of this process so that that’s going to a little bit what it what are the three S stand for.
[23:12] So it’s accountability autonomy and advancement so I talk a little bit about a time me which is having,
favor bus documentation and easy to work through,
and then also the 15-minute rule so that’s going over that the accountability part is that when you’re actually on a project and you start working is always tracking what you’re up to,
to make sure you’re ready for review and then having free reviews instead of waiting entire year.
So we would have standardized quarterly reviews.
That would go over like hey what have you done you should have a whole report written up because you would have possibly be tracking it you’re as you did work.
[23:58] So my boss actually had his great sanitize system called success statement where you return a product you working to.
Worked on into 140 characters or less simple set in a resume.
Will be a high-level sentence and be easy for people who don’t.
You don’t understand your job to understand what you worked out so say you worked on a project that save the company $1,000 a month.
Updating is API you write that down and buy everything for that down for every project if you look after a quarter and then even more of your year you made the company so much money and it’s such a great report to have.
Soaking it really how much you’ve achieved and learn.
[24:49] And I think that’s that’s that’s important number for the number frames when it shows your value but just for me selfish evenings like confidence standpoint cuz sometimes when you
you know it’s hard to look at the the 30 things you did because they’re all small but then if you look back at that as a retrospective at the end of the year and you’re like wow,
like I did do a lot like I did contribute a lot like look at me right I’m done I’m awesome.
[25:14] Yeah and it’s really great to have that connection to the business so sometimes you can be working on a technical problem and not realize how much it actually contributes and how much of an impact your make a.
And I always make you should have made that connection I feel good inspires you to work harder especially when it’s something really boring or TDS I know I K I’m saving the company this money I’m helping us get this profit.
It really I think it really inspires you.
[25:44] Okay and then you should have divorced when you mentioned was advancement what was that mean.
[25:50] So when I started the job our first conversation wasn’t hey let’s talk about you doing this job and how you’re going to succeed admit it was what is your next step where do you want to go from there.
Cuz I want you to be costly thinking about what you can study and learn and work on to make sure you get to the next step and then for.
There was a couple different pasta to go in a company for each one once you kind of narrow down what you want to work on it would be a standard set of criteria so their criteria.
Would be like.
Leading a team handling emotional situations being able to communicate well too large group sings like that,
enemy standard I so you wouldn’t have to worry how do I get this job would be okay I know exactly what I need to do less that goes to make sure I reach them and then when it comes to,
promotion time when there are okay we have an opening who has demonstrated the skills I said with a criteria for this job instead of.
Who is my friend right get a beer with us a person to get a promotion I definitely found that other companies and it contributes to.
A lack of diversity inclusion when that happens when there isn’t here’s a skilled we need its who do I like.
[27:14] And he also talked about properly measuring success so what recommendations do you have for both the unity employee and a manager to help with measuring the success of their dancing.
[27:30] Sure when you think about the technology and that you have messaged her that so when you’re Building Technology you want to see is it going fast enough is it no scalable that’s where thing you want to apply that to people you’re managing as well,
do you want to think about how many people are getting promotions how many interns are getting jobs.
And then how I don’t date of our documentation anything you can measure you can always improve so it’s important to think about what am I goes for my team and what are the metrics I can use to make it happen so.
What are things we did Hugh Jackman Tatian to check it to make sure everything was updated.
Track any updated dates on them but also kind of spreading that.
Responsibilities at on the whole team so everyone knew hey that you’re taking your in charge of hasn’t been updated a while and then as a group if it has an update as a while let’s talk about process we can do to improve that.
[28:31] And as a manager which is most of my my listeners how would you advise a manager who wants to try to,
Brooke room is entry-level employees like what are some steps they can do either themselves or help inside of a larger company unit to try to achieve this kind of success and as you talk about the Triple-A team power Poway what can they do to help.
[28:58] I think you just start small and think about what your goals are and kind of one step at a time,
Boston Delta system over years,
but it’s kind of slowly added things in right so you start with adding more and more to the training you can you no have conversations with your employees and say hey let’s talk to you know.
Want to know once every two weeks or once a month and let’s talk about your goals and what he do to get their morning things my boss said was really great is that she would,
meet with the heads of other departments say hey I have employees that I think want to be in your department tell me what skills you need like,
if they and I worked at a visual text known each other be lighting department and also technical department also there are shoe departments like what.
What do my team members need to demonstrate to you so kind of like Gathering that information for them is really help.
know what are the things to have noticed is your part of a lot of organizations and you Mentor no girl develop it women who code your tell me about some of those organizations in NYC their important and how you got involved.
[30:15] Shirt and medium and last time I had for a long time I was the only woman on the team.
I just feel so demoralizing you can try to get other people higher braces.
It can be really tough especially moving the culture of a whole company or whole team when you’re just one person so I started out just by,
going to ignore women attack me and I said things like that and I really enjoyed it so I really wanted to contribute more and kind of create the culture I want to be in,
I realize for every person I Inspire to continue with the attack or even to join it and they’ll realize that.
[30:54] Stereotypes of you has Avenue in take your whole life,
you know that you have to be looking certain way those are just aren’t true technology is constantly changing to really I just have to be someone who enjoys learning and enjoys challenging themselves.
Because you can learn something you know how long is reacting around it’s only been a couple years if you learn that now you can start a new career.
So it’s really all about inspiring people on crane the cold I wanted it is a National Organization that I’m a part of that crate low-cost classes,
Four Women in underwear presented minorities to try to bring them into.
Into technology but also just the show them you don’t even if you’re not working technology technology can improve your day.
So it starts with basic you don’t enter descriptive things like that expires people to keep learning on their own and I just started with that last one month and I really really enjoyed it.
[32:00] And I also recommend any of my listeners or manages out there who are in companies that have the ability to help
weather in sponsoring or participating or or mentoring yourselves easier organizations you can all reach out to I know what it where I am a Nazi Roby sponsor women who code and
you know I think it’s a really important to you know to really support these organizations that are helping
members of underrepresented groups to serve get their confidence and get some skills and like really get into technology.
[32:36] Actually yeah women who codes conference in San Francisco last year was one of those where I just sat in a room and listen to Great women tell stories about tech all day and,
inspired me like these are how to tell a good talk and I felt really comfortable and very inspired to do more of my own.
[32:55] The one thing I also asked him I guess two is you talk about going to conferences and and
watching talks are there any things that stand out to you that inspired you or that you would recommend to other people books podcast videos or the conference that you mentioned that you want to come to mention some of my listeners.
[33:27] Lyrics to actually I wanted to recommend and they’re a little unusual but I thought it’d be nice to have something besides the managers path cuz we all ready.
The one book I read that really impact me was called stick figure sobriety is asking about a woman and fighting her.
Her alcoholism but I think it did a lot to build my empathy I think that’s a really strong skill you need as a manager I think when I was in early manager I would focus on what SEALs am I going to have nothing about.
What could be affecting them why they can’t do their best what’s going on with their life have a nice kind of support them wholeheartedly I think Memoirs like that that show,
you know this woman went to work every day and she was just struggling so hard to just get through the day let alone 16 their job really bills at everything,
and then also about how you break that habit maybe your habit isn’t as.
[34:23] Horrible as alcoholism but there’s so many ways that people can I get stuck in a rush and I feel like it was a really interesting Journey she had kind of an inspiring book.
And then on the other end of the spectrum I really like Barbara corcoran’s business on usual podcast they’re pretty sure,
but they’re kind of like to the point and variation will tips I guess he said episodes or 5 to 10 minutes,
but they’re just sometimes will play them over again to Summer just a really digest all that really amazing kind of business and team growth tips.
[35:03] No those are awesome in the first one you mentioned two is something known as mentioned on my podcast but the concept of building empathy is something that I really resonate with and I think it’s extremely important.
Be part of your managers toolkit right and you just be a good set of partner and and human being and so I think that’s a great one I’ll have to look that up and again for all of my listeners I will put those on the show notes with thanks to those so that you can,
I’ll go listen to the podcast and go find the book no,
what is Michelle what is the best way for any of my listeners if they wanted to reach out and contact you how should they do that.
[35:43] I’m on Twitter at Michelle Lindy and then also on LinkedIn as Michelle Brenner but you want to know all my details Michelle Brenner. Com is my website has all information about the talks I give where I’m going to be speaking apps that tortoise.
[35:57] Awesome well Michelle I really appreciate the time coming on the on the on this podcast today had a great conversation and so thank you very much.